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(Arcana)
 
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::Btw, just because a page sucks is not an argument to not link to it. It's an argument to improve it. But yeah that Kishin page sucks. And technically, if not deleted, it should be titled List of Kishin (wikipedia practice) --[[User:Yksehtniycul|Yksehtniycul]] 20:37, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 
::Btw, just because a page sucks is not an argument to not link to it. It's an argument to improve it. But yeah that Kishin page sucks. And technically, if not deleted, it should be titled List of Kishin (wikipedia practice) --[[User:Yksehtniycul|Yksehtniycul]] 20:37, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 
::: I'm not against linking to non-existent pages, but I'm not in favor of linking to unnecessary, non-existent pages. What is Category:Kishin Race? It's a list of demons who were or are Kishin. Making lists of races and arcana is rather pointless when these categories exist. In Kishin's case, it won't be that bad, but in the case of ANY arcana, it's going to be a confusing bloody mess of a list. After all, very few persona can manage to stay in one arcana for more than one or two titles. Additionally, categories can interlock much easier, allowing for some semblance of organization. Furthermore, I still stand by it looking absolutely hideous. Changing policy frequently and midstream causes things to be very disorganized and inconsistent, and in this case, I think it detracts from the page rather than adds to it. The change would cause increased editing for about 90% of the pages just to decrease the editing on about 10% of them. All for something that doesn't really add anything constructive. [[User:SeventhEvening|SeventhEvening]] 21:31, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 
::: I'm not against linking to non-existent pages, but I'm not in favor of linking to unnecessary, non-existent pages. What is Category:Kishin Race? It's a list of demons who were or are Kishin. Making lists of races and arcana is rather pointless when these categories exist. In Kishin's case, it won't be that bad, but in the case of ANY arcana, it's going to be a confusing bloody mess of a list. After all, very few persona can manage to stay in one arcana for more than one or two titles. Additionally, categories can interlock much easier, allowing for some semblance of organization. Furthermore, I still stand by it looking absolutely hideous. Changing policy frequently and midstream causes things to be very disorganized and inconsistent, and in this case, I think it detracts from the page rather than adds to it. The change would cause increased editing for about 90% of the pages just to decrease the editing on about 10% of them. All for something that doesn't really add anything constructive. [[User:SeventhEvening|SeventhEvening]] 21:31, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
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::::I edit "Appearances" sections all the time. No big deal to snip out some unnecessary words while at it. The page for Kishin shouldn't be a list. The categories pseudo pages however can be a nightmare to navigate and misleading, so a list page is always nice... on wikipedia those are the pages people actually use (not the categories, if wikipedia even really deploys categories) ...but anyway there is a ton to say about Kishin other than listing them.... starting with what a Kishin is in the first place, and how Atlus USA might use a different name, and so on. Kishin also play a major role in most of the SMT games, so... afaik it's a very important page, that should exist, but doesn't because no one has gotten to it. If there was a way for flagging pages for priority, the devil types would be very high ranking pages in my book.--[[User:Yksehtniycul|Yksehtniycul]] 22:25, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
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==Spelling==
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I think the -no- type spelling is wrong. For one thing the dashes can be confused as stresses, and isolating no like that, makes it appear to be the possessive particle の which it isn't. Other than using Susanoo, which can look like it reeds like the oo in "choose", probably Susano'o as wikipedia does it is as good as you're going to get.--[[User:Yksehtniycul|Yksehtniycul]] 20:17, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
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:Yeah, it's like the name says "Susa's king", which is not the case. I much prefer using Susano-o, since the dash was used in the game instead of the apostrophe. '''<font face="Trebuchet MS"><span style="background:#3300CC">[[User:Bluerfn|<span style="color:white"><sup>BLUER</sup></span>]]</span>[[User talk:Bluerfn|<span style="color:#CC0011">一番</span>]]</font>''' 11:17, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
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==Arcana==
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I noticed Bluer (hi Bluer!) added "Arcana" to the Persona appearances. Just for the record, I've been chopping the Arcana off these whenever I edit an appearance section which is pretty regularly. And anyway, I don't think anyone would want to hunt down all of these and correct them. So I'll just make the argument that saying "Arcana" over and over is redundant. And I know just linking to the word without the "arcana" on the isn't guaranteed to go directly to that page. But I think people reading these sections know what they mean, so the linked word is just there in case they don't know what the hell that means, in which case it's not meant to go directly to the arcana page, but to instead educate them on what the word means, which they should get by linking to like [[Devil]] which would include a section taht says in Persona this can mean the Devil Arcana yada yada yada. So anyway, It's not necessary to add arcana. And why do more work than is necessary right?--[[User:Yksehtniycul|Yksehtniycul]] 21:37, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
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:Hmm, I'm looking at the perspective of people who don't "know what they mean", and is interested in knowing what a "Devil Arcana" is instead of what "Devil" stands for. You know, some people would rather when they click a link to a term they want to find out, they would rather be pointed to the article itself instead of a disambiguation. And iInstead of leaving it to link to a redirect, I'll link it directly to the article itself. '''<font face="Trebuchet MS"><span style="background:#3300CC">[[User:Bluerfn|<span style="color:white"><sup>BLUER</sup></span>]]</span>[[User talk:Bluerfn|<span style="color:#CC0011">一番</span>]]</font>''' 02:04, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
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::I look at it this way. Who is going to click on a link in an appearances section that is going to take them to a page all about an arcana that lists the personae in that arcana etc? If the link was game specific I could see a utility in clicking it, but it wouldn't be, so the only people who will click it is the people who don't know what it is. As for like learning about other uses of the word "Devil", if you're going to learn what a word means, then you might as well learn what else it can mean at the same time, so you could tell the difference the next time you see it. I never feel wronged when I end up learning something extra. Lastly, a Persona or whatever isn't a Devil Arcana, it's a Devil, or Fool, etc. so unless you say "one of the Devil Arcana" it's grammatically inaccurate. Also it's not really clear if any qualifier is appropriate for many of the classifications in games, so it's better to do it all uniformly. I feel strongly about this, and I don't see how you could care that much, so better to just leave it alone. Either way is fine, but if I'm editing I'd probably be inclined to lop off the arcanas, but I would not be inclined to go on a mission to purge the wiki of that practice. --[[User:Yksehtniycul|Yksehtniycul]] 05:30, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
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::Furthermore, for sake of style or whatever, I basically see links as being one of two types. They're either hand holding helpers, or direct to a specific well qualified topic, which should only be used within a situation where there is ample context. The appearances sections are devoid of context, so I think using direct linkage in such a case is inappropriate. That is to say technically nothing in that section should probably be linked, but we still link some just for when it might rarely aid some confused reader.--[[User:Yksehtniycul|Yksehtniycul]] 05:27, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
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::PS: You could make a game specific link by using Star Arcana (Persona 3) or List of Stars in Persona 3 for instance instead, but though that might be a useful page, I don't think it really works in the appearances list.

Latest revision as of 05:30, July 26, 2009

Appearances descriptorsEdit

Why not shorten the description for generic devil/persona classifications to just the unique class name and link them like I've done on this page after feeling some frustration? --Yksehtniycul 19:12, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Mostly because that involves going back and editing hundreds of pages just because you decided you didn't want to type an extra word or two. A second reason is because it links to a ton of non-existent pages. A third reason is, in an optimal situation that those pages did exist, they'd look like the Kishin page, which does absolutely nothing for the user other than say some generic crap and then link to different Kishin demons. A user would be much better off scrolling to the bottom of the page and clicking Category:Kishin Race. It definitely makes the page look worse. At least, that's my humble opinion. SeventhEvening 20:27, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
I always thought links to non-existent pages are extremely important for a new wiki. They help users know when a new page is needed more or less. Not linking to non-existent pages is patently crazy, because like you said, you'd have to go back and make non-links into links. But I think it's a false idea that the best practices policy can change and for some reason you must go and edit every old page. That's nuts. You just follow the practice when you see something that needs fixing (and feel like doing it) or obviously when entering new content.
PS: How can a Megaten wiki not have a Kishin page? Or many of them for that matter? --Yksehtniycul 20:33, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Btw, just because a page sucks is not an argument to not link to it. It's an argument to improve it. But yeah that Kishin page sucks. And technically, if not deleted, it should be titled List of Kishin (wikipedia practice) --Yksehtniycul 20:37, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm not against linking to non-existent pages, but I'm not in favor of linking to unnecessary, non-existent pages. What is Category:Kishin Race? It's a list of demons who were or are Kishin. Making lists of races and arcana is rather pointless when these categories exist. In Kishin's case, it won't be that bad, but in the case of ANY arcana, it's going to be a confusing bloody mess of a list. After all, very few persona can manage to stay in one arcana for more than one or two titles. Additionally, categories can interlock much easier, allowing for some semblance of organization. Furthermore, I still stand by it looking absolutely hideous. Changing policy frequently and midstream causes things to be very disorganized and inconsistent, and in this case, I think it detracts from the page rather than adds to it. The change would cause increased editing for about 90% of the pages just to decrease the editing on about 10% of them. All for something that doesn't really add anything constructive. SeventhEvening 21:31, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
I edit "Appearances" sections all the time. No big deal to snip out some unnecessary words while at it. The page for Kishin shouldn't be a list. The categories pseudo pages however can be a nightmare to navigate and misleading, so a list page is always nice... on wikipedia those are the pages people actually use (not the categories, if wikipedia even really deploys categories) ...but anyway there is a ton to say about Kishin other than listing them.... starting with what a Kishin is in the first place, and how Atlus USA might use a different name, and so on. Kishin also play a major role in most of the SMT games, so... afaik it's a very important page, that should exist, but doesn't because no one has gotten to it. If there was a way for flagging pages for priority, the devil types would be very high ranking pages in my book.--Yksehtniycul 22:25, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

SpellingEdit

I think the -no- type spelling is wrong. For one thing the dashes can be confused as stresses, and isolating no like that, makes it appear to be the possessive particle の which it isn't. Other than using Susanoo, which can look like it reeds like the oo in "choose", probably Susano'o as wikipedia does it is as good as you're going to get.--Yksehtniycul 20:17, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, it's like the name says "Susa's king", which is not the case. I much prefer using Susano-o, since the dash was used in the game instead of the apostrophe. BLUER一番 11:17, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

ArcanaEdit

I noticed Bluer (hi Bluer!) added "Arcana" to the Persona appearances. Just for the record, I've been chopping the Arcana off these whenever I edit an appearance section which is pretty regularly. And anyway, I don't think anyone would want to hunt down all of these and correct them. So I'll just make the argument that saying "Arcana" over and over is redundant. And I know just linking to the word without the "arcana" on the isn't guaranteed to go directly to that page. But I think people reading these sections know what they mean, so the linked word is just there in case they don't know what the hell that means, in which case it's not meant to go directly to the arcana page, but to instead educate them on what the word means, which they should get by linking to like Devil which would include a section taht says in Persona this can mean the Devil Arcana yada yada yada. So anyway, It's not necessary to add arcana. And why do more work than is necessary right?--Yksehtniycul 21:37, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm looking at the perspective of people who don't "know what they mean", and is interested in knowing what a "Devil Arcana" is instead of what "Devil" stands for. You know, some people would rather when they click a link to a term they want to find out, they would rather be pointed to the article itself instead of a disambiguation. And iInstead of leaving it to link to a redirect, I'll link it directly to the article itself. BLUER一番 02:04, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
I look at it this way. Who is going to click on a link in an appearances section that is going to take them to a page all about an arcana that lists the personae in that arcana etc? If the link was game specific I could see a utility in clicking it, but it wouldn't be, so the only people who will click it is the people who don't know what it is. As for like learning about other uses of the word "Devil", if you're going to learn what a word means, then you might as well learn what else it can mean at the same time, so you could tell the difference the next time you see it. I never feel wronged when I end up learning something extra. Lastly, a Persona or whatever isn't a Devil Arcana, it's a Devil, or Fool, etc. so unless you say "one of the Devil Arcana" it's grammatically inaccurate. Also it's not really clear if any qualifier is appropriate for many of the classifications in games, so it's better to do it all uniformly. I feel strongly about this, and I don't see how you could care that much, so better to just leave it alone. Either way is fine, but if I'm editing I'd probably be inclined to lop off the arcanas, but I would not be inclined to go on a mission to purge the wiki of that practice. --Yksehtniycul 05:30, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Furthermore, for sake of style or whatever, I basically see links as being one of two types. They're either hand holding helpers, or direct to a specific well qualified topic, which should only be used within a situation where there is ample context. The appearances sections are devoid of context, so I think using direct linkage in such a case is inappropriate. That is to say technically nothing in that section should probably be linked, but we still link some just for when it might rarely aid some confused reader.--Yksehtniycul 05:27, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
PS: You could make a game specific link by using Star Arcana (Persona 3) or List of Stars in Persona 3 for instance instead, but though that might be a useful page, I don't think it really works in the appearances list.
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