Talk: Shadow Self

Persona 2 vs. Persona 4

Are we positive that the shadow selves from Persona 4 are the same as the shadow selves from Persona 2? Both games take place on the same timeline (generally speaking), so for them to contradict makes no sense. I think Yu is right in what he says, that one's Persona and shadow self cannot coexist. That's what Persona 4 showed us. I think it's more likely that the Persona 2 shadow selves are simply a different type of being that go by the same name, though I haven't ever played Persona 2, so I can't say for sure. What do you all think? Cixer (talk) 17:29, November 10, 2012 (UTC)

Of course, there is the possibility that the P4 guys are just wrong you know? I mean, think about it. We know that Personas are tamed Shadows, yes? If someone can have multiple Personas, it makes sense that they can have multiple Shadows as well, yes? However, not getting into that, there is the fact that, silly outfits aside, the Persona 2 Shadows act more or less exactly like the P4 Shadows (represents and exaggerates the character's flaws, is affected by how other people view them, and, hell, I am pretty sure they say something along the lines of "I am Shadow, the true self" as well.) Trying to argue that they are completely different is silly, since one is clearly inspired by, if not based on, the other. The exact reason for the contradiction is unknown, but it's possible that the Arena writers just forgot about it, though, as mentioned, they do have the handwave of the people saying it are people who are uninformed about the full nature of these things.--Otherarrow (talk) 18:14, November 10, 2012 (UTC)

Even though those Shadows were created by Nyarlathotep, they are the same kind of Shadows as the P4 cast albeit the eye color (P2: red, P4: yellow. This doesn't mean they are different kinds. In an early trailer of the original P4, Shadow Yosuke had red eyes). I really doubt that the writers forgot about that, Otherarrow. Don't forget that the P2 cast and the P4 cast had different experiences with Shadows. The P2 cast had their first battle with their Shadows using a reverse version of theirs, and that would seem natural for them, like Your Shadow can use a twisted version of your Person in battle. as that was their first encounter. While the P4 cast had a different experience. The first time their Shadows appeared (except Yu) they didn't had a Reverse Persona, instead, they transformed into a full Shadow with a twisted form of their Persona form, and then again, that is natural for them as thinking Your Shadow can transform into a twisted version of your Persona if you deny it., again, first encounter. Also, don't forget that the P2 cast already had their Personas tamed thanks to the Persona game (the game the characters play) and Philemon (Wild Card), and that may be a possibility of why their Personas didn't vanished since they had one kind of the WIld Card and because the already had tamed their Personas. The P4 cast (again, except Yu) don't have the Wild Card and recieved their Personas because of their Shadow Selves and not through the Persona game or Philemon... that's what I got from playing all the games at least. But of course, writer forgeting is a possibility too... although not that much. One more thing, you don't get the Shadow Self perspective by only playing P4, so play P2 to have more knowladge of it. -- Crok425 (talk) 04:53, November 11, 2012 (UTC)

There's also an aspect that Crok mentioned that bears repeating--the P2 Shadows were created by Nyarlathotep. Nyarlathotep is the Shadow of all of humanity, so it stands to reason that he could invoke an individual's Shadow regardless of whether he or she had access to their Persona, and likewise grant Shadows the power of Persona, or (more likely) a facsimile thereof. Combine that with the evidence that P4Arena's Malevolent Entity is Nyarlathotep, everything falls into place, at least from where I'm sitting. Cukeman (talk) 05:52, December 26, 2012 (UTC)

It's worth noting that only the EP Shadows where directly created by Nyarlathotep. The IS ones came about due to conflicting rumors surrounding the main characters.--Otherarrow (talk) 11:00, December 26, 2012 (UTC)

You forget that it was Nyarlathotep created the rumor curse, so anything created by the curse are by extension created by Nyarlathotep. Cukeman (talk) 15:55, December 26, 2012 (UTC)

Not really, Nyarlathotep did create the rumor curse but the rumors are created by the people so it would be the responsability of the people the rumors that are spread like... I dunno, God gave humanity free will (to put an example) so they decide how they live... I sound stupid but whatever. Either way, no matter how a Shadow is created they are the same kind and they want the same goal, also don't forget that the Shadows of P2 are in the real world and the Shadows of P4 are in a different world AND the Shadow of the protagonist in P3 (he is mostly a Shadow) uses reverse Persona versions but he is in the real world half Tartarus. -- Crok425 (talk) 16:20, December 26, 2012 (UTC)

I honestly don't understand what point you were trying to make towards the end there (seriously, consider proofreading), but let me rephrase my prior point. Nyarlathotep created he rumor curse, and it's therefore through him that rumors are able to become reality. Quoting directly from IS, before the fight with Great Father: "The crystal skulls and Xibalba are only a fragment of me[Nyarlathotep], manifested by your kind's yearning for such things." And before you go saying, "but that's not talking about the Shadow selves," it's the same concept: manifestations of Nyarlathotep invoked through rumor. Also, we totally need more colins. Cukeman (talk) 05:51, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

I meant that since the Shadows in P2 were in the real world they are fought in a different way than the ones in P4 because those are in the TV World. And it's not the same concept, people created the rumor of the Shadows not Nyarlathotep even though he created the curse. It's like saying that the rumors I spread in the game weren't spread by the Detective Agency but by Nyarlathotep. And since Nyarlathotep is the Shadow of humanity then that means that the Shadows of P4 are technically created by him too, still making them the same kind of Shadows. -- Crok425 (talk) 06:46, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not saying Nyarlathotep spread the rumors. I'm saying he made them real. Cukeman (talk) 21:31, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Also, forgot to mention--I'm not disagreeing with you that they're the same type of Shadow. All I'm saying is that Nyarlathotep, being humanity's Shadow, could cause an individual's Shadow to appear (or he could take their form) independantly of said individual's Persona, even though that's typically impossible. To use an analogy, the Shadows that appear in P4 are like letting a game of The Sims play itself, and the ones that appear in P2 and P4A (other than Labrys') are like taking direct control of what your Sims do. Cukeman (talk) 14:56, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

I know that. Yes, Nyarlathotep can create a Shadow of a person if he wants or transform in that person's Shadow, although I'm confused because he can either have red eyes (as seen in Eternal Punishment with the characters Shadows) or have golden eyes (as seen when he transforms into Tatsuya also in Eternal Punishment). There is a certain individual in Persona 4 Arena that many fans think it's Nyarlathotep and he fights as the character's Shadows and even with their respective Personas like Kanji with Take-Mikazuchi... so that statement kinda is... confusing. I haven't played Sims so I don't exactly know what you mean... well, more or less. In any case, P4 even says that Shadow will appear again if you deny something in which will cause your Persona to dissapear and your Shadow to pop up which again contradicts P2, Shadows appeared and the cast still have Personas but that can easily be explained since the Shadows in IS were created by rumors and in EP were created by Nyarlathotep and the cast already had their Personas tamed in which I'm already having a headache because it's hard to explain........ -- Crok425 (talk) 23:57, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

Maya states in Persona 2: IS: "An imposter, born out of our rumors, isn't it...? It's just like what happened with our Shadows. Another "self" that was created in the minds of others."' This implies that the Persona 2 Shadow Selves weren't spawns from the psyche of the individuals they resemble, but from one another. I see this as the crucial difference--Persona 4 Shadow Selves are the Shadows (and eventually Personas) of their hosts (Shadow Yosuke came from Yosuke), while Persona 2 Shadow Selves don't come from the individuals they resemble specifically (Shadow Maya was created via rumors, not spawning from Maya specifically). In this way, a Shadow Self and a Persona cannot coexist, and Persona 2 doesn't contradict Persona 4. Cixer (talk) 02:10, June 20, 2013 (UTC)

Persona 2 Shadow Selves

Why isn't there an article about them and there is for the P4 cast? Isn't a good thing to make articles about them? -- Crok425 (talk) 10:15, December 5, 2012 (UTC)

The short answer? No one has gotten around to it. Long answer? No one has gotten around to getting stats and images for them on top of making the pages. If you wanted to start, I'll be happy to help out.--Otherarrow (talk) 20:54, December 5, 2012 (UTC)

Well, since I'm replaying P2:IS on the PSP I'll try to note every stat they have, as for P2:EP I'll try to replay the game on the emulator of PSX and catch a quick look on the stats. I'll let you know when I'm done with that.

EDIT: I'll start with Shadow Maya. I passed that battle when I wrote this sooo... I'm actually getting the info on gamefaqs, is that allowed? In any case, assuming the answer is yes there a few differences with the PSX version and PSP version of Innocent Sin like the ammount of HP. There are the attacks and the comment when you try to contact her. Anyway, can I start?-- Crok425 (talk) 15:18, December 14, 2012 (UTC)

Go ahead.--Otherarrow (talk) 18:21, December 14, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks you. If I have problems with the stat info box, I'll let you know because I don't really know how does that thing work. Also, I can't find the stat points in strength and magic and such for the Shadows... those things are mostly as ? but still, can I start it? -- Crok425 (talk) 18:26, December 14, 2012 (UTC)

Go ahead. Fill in as much as you can. I'll be there to clean up if need be.--Otherarrow (talk) 19:06, December 14, 2012 (UTC)

Done with Shadow Maya, I'm gonna do Shadow Tatsuya now since it's easier to do and because he's not in Eternal Punishment. If you find any issues in Shadow Maya, please fix it. Also, we need an info box for stats for Persona 2... I dunno how to make one. -- Crok425 (talk) 21:23, December 14, 2012 (UTC)

We have one. It's at Template:P2EnemyOnlyStats--Otherarrow (talk) 21:37, December 14, 2012 (UTC)

... Dammit, I'll put it right up in Shadow Maya and Shadow Tatsuya. -- Crok425 (talk) 22:17, December 14, 2012 (UTC)

Done with Shadow Tatsuya. If there is something wrong with it, please fix it. I'll make more tomorrow since it takes some time to make this kind of articles. Also I added what I know in the stats info box in terms of resistances and such. in the Shadow Maya's case like the 4000/5000 HP represents the variation if the player selects something else in Monado Mandala. incorrect choices makes the boss fight of Shadow Maya and Shadow Baofu harder so don't delete it. -- Crok425 (talk) 23:01, December 14, 2012 (UTC)

Is there an Eternal Punishment boss category? It bothers me putting the Shadow Selves as characters. -- Crok425 (talk) 19:23, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

There should be. If not, we can make one. No biggy.--Otherarrow (talk) 05:06, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

The wiki says there isn't, I still added the category to the articles so visit the categor yand create it since it still says that it doesn't exist. Thank you for the help. -- Crok425 (talk) 05:37, December 16, 2012 (UTC)