Alright, This page seemed to be moved to the super-super extended North American title. We should not do that. Atlus US attaches the words "Shin Megami Tensei" in the front of games it does not belong in front of simply to help draw connect to the series because it is less well known in the US. Additionally, it is the second Devil Summoner game in the US, but the fourth over all. The original title did not contain this numbering, nor the Shin Megami Tensei marker. For all the games we have on this wiki, we've stuck with the most accurate and official title possible, so we should do so with this game as well. SeventhEvening 19:34, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I beg to differ. We're an English wiki. We should be referring to the official English title as much as possible, accurate or not. We can talk about accuracy in the article itself, but the subject title should be using the official English version - unless that doesn't exist then we substitute it with the official Japanese.
Plus, this wiki has been "antagonizing" the localization long enough. If you want to write a Japanese wiki I wouldn't mind, but we're writing our content in English. BLUER一番 01:53, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
So....we should change Nocturne to Lucifer's Call? We should painstaking add the word Shin Megami Tensei to the front of every single title that ATLUS USA has released? We should return to "Revelations: Persona"? We're a wiki in English. With information about a game that is made by the Japanese. About Japanese people. Heavily influenced by Japanese culture. Filled with Japanese gods. Telling stories from a Japanese perspective. I respect ATLUS USA for bringing these titles over for a wider audience. And since the release of Eternal Punishment, ATLUS USA has really done a very respectable job on the localization. It's really great. But they also do things that are stupid or wrong for the sake of marketing. I'm sure Devil Summoner will be labeled "Shin Megami Tensei" as well instead of carrying the Megami Ibunroku title. I'm not trying to "antagonize" the localization, nor am I trying to write a Japanese wiki. I was one of the earliest editors on this wiki (as were you) and I came here to create a place where fans of the Megaten universe could obtain the most accurate information possible. I don't understand why you are so intent on antagonizing the source. I've truly valued your input, even though we sometimes disagree on things. But I really don't understand this one. The fact of the matter is that we are not creating a wiki for something like Final Fantasy, where what you are suggesting makes sense. The most accurate information is the original source material. Things like Kuma being changed to Teddie are perfectly logical and maintain the same level of accuracy and meaning despite being altered. The title that ATLUS USA gave to this game was purely to help them market. It's referred to as Devil Summoner 2 so that people aren't confused by the fact that they missed out on two Saturn games that were never localized (and thus refuse to buy the game). The words Shin Megami Tensei were added in order to attract people that know nothing about the series, but might have played one or two of the other titles (since the brand lacks the automatic recognition that other franchises have). From a marketing point of view, where the goal is to sell as many copies as possible, this makes perfect sense but from an informational standpoint, it is terribly illogical and, in fact, more confusing. I buy ATLUS USA's products and support their localization efforts, but I see no reason at all to favor inaccurate localization over accurate source materials. I mean, I really don't understand. In my opinion, Wikipedia is supposed to be the English Wiki, and it's information on Megaten games is a mess. Really, most of it's information on Japanese games in general is a mess. There is constant debate because it is English but British and American are both English and many game titles change between US and PAL releases. I'm really not trying to be an ass, and I highly respect your work on this site, but I cannot understand your point of view, and I usually have it explained to me in the manner of "This is an English wiki so it should be this way", which still doesn't help me understand. Because in my opinion, we are not at all an English wiki, but rather a wiki written in English. Not a single item on any one of our pages was originally made in an English speaking country, or even made with English speakers in mind. Our wiki details more games that are not available in English than it details games that are.
And I'm sorry, because I know that is a massive rant, and yet another wall of text. But I honestly argue with you for the sake of accuracy and not because I'm trying to start shit. I really hope that did not come off confrontational (although I was a little angry at first because it seemed like you were saying "my way or GTFO") because I whole heartedly want to understand where you are coming from. SeventhEvening 03:56, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick response. For the first part: yes, we should be changing most of titles to the North American version - where it exists. That said - I did not propose Nocturne to be named Lucifer's Call - that's the PAL version. I did not propose "Aegis The First Mission" to "Aigis The First Mission" because it does not exist. All I'm saying is that we acknowledge that a North American title exists, accurate or no - and I emphasize North American since that's the prevalent English source. Since you've twisted my POV and thinks I'm antagonizing the source - I clarify that I do not. But to discredit the North American translation, which in your POV is inaccurate, is not what I think should be done. BLUER一番 04:18, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
I don't mean to discredit the localization, and I do think that the North American title should be acknowledged. In fact, it is extremely important to let people know that the game is available in English. Even unofficially, such as with the Gemini patch, so that as many people as possible can enjoy the games. And honestly, the North American translation is extremely accurate and very, very well done. It is extremely respectful to the source. However, ATLUS's English titles are not accurate at all. Translation is 98% good. There was a hiccup in P3 and anything before Persona 2 was very inaccurate. And that isn't a POV issue there. Revelations was a terrible, terrible translation. I've played it. Other than that, Aigis doesn't make sense other than it is spelled more like it is pronounced. That is the only gripe I have about a whole 60+ hour game. In fact, it's really about the only translating gripe I have about ATLUS's entire library of games released after June of 2000. Out of soon to be NINE years of translation, the only gross inaccuracies I can name are Aigis, and a couple of demon names in Nocturne. Other than that, FANTASTIC TRANSLATION. That being said, out of every single Megami Tensei game that was released after 2004 by ATLUS USA, almost none of them contain accurate titles. They were renamed for marketing purposes. Just like Lucifer's Call. In addition, this naming has created a certain level of brand confusion. There are many people who believe that Raidou vs. King Abaddon is the 2nd devil summoner game, which is inaccurate. The number 2 should not have been included in the title. Additionally, I have met people unwilling to touch Shin Megami Tensei games because all of them are labeled as such and they think they need to play all of them to be able to understand the latest game. I understand, that from a marketing POV, ATLUS might be doing the right thing, but from an accuracy stand point, the titles are just ridiculous. They are also a mouthful, but that is another issue all together. I'm not attacking the translation, but I am attacking the titles. I also feel it is extremely hypocritical to ignore PAL releases just because it is convenient. Just because you or I happen to be American does not mean that there is not an equal number of other English speakers in other territories. Technically, the top contributor to this wiki is not from North America. I'm fine with siding with the English translation for things that are accurate, which, again, is at least 98%. But, for the sake of accuracy, some things should not be. Essentially, I would argue that would be titles, Aegis, and Chiaki Tachibana. In the case of those demons I mentioned being inaccurate, most of them are already referred to more often by the more accurate names in recent titles, and thus are referred to that way here. I'm not trying to grief or discredit the English localizations. I think the handful of things I've listed that that should not side with the English localization is fairly reasonable. I also think if a Japanese source conflicts with an English source, the Japanese source wins. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but the English is just a translation, while the Japanese is the original work. Jesus, I'm wordy. SeventhEvening 05:05, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Out of soon to be NINE years of translation, the only gross inaccuracies I can name are Aigis, and a couple of demon names in Nocturne.

I for one think its hypocritical to discredit the entire localization just because a few localization efforts went "grossly inaccurate". I still remember the decision to use JP just because mainly the early localization was not as appealing; so what? *shrugs* It's not like we can't explain to our readers why "KingAbaddon" had SMT and DS2 appended on the NA title, or why Chiaki had to change her family name. BTW Aegis making sense than Aigis is as much as her being a humanoid Anti-Shadow weapon - it doesn't have to make sense. But it makes sense more on why an English wiki like us is referring to the North American translation when it exists.

I also feel it is extremely hypocritical to ignore PAL releases just because it is convenient.

We're not ignoring the PAL translation because it's convenient - but honestly can anyone claim they've played the PAL versions more than the NA, notwithstanding the JP version? If that's hypocritical, I'd say ignoring inaccuracies in the North American version hypocritical, and even more hypocritical to use English words to translate our Japanese titles. I saw "Shibito Ekishi" article being created; its confusing when we use "tai" in that and "Vs." in the other two Raidou titles.

I also think if a Japanese source conflicts with an English source, the Japanese source wins.

I must admit, I'm doing this because I'm being apologetic to Atlus USA. I'm not gonna claim they're inaccurate in titling nor are they more concerned on marketing, but they have to do this if they want to garner more fans so it is quite reasonable for them to do so. BTW, I had met with some of my Japanese friends who are avid gamers and they don't know what MegaTen is! *shrug*
I know it's just fiction and I should relax, but I think we need more input on this, and especially from our founder about the issue. BLUER一番 09:52, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Alright, first thing, as I said several times: I am not all discrediting any localization. Again, the localizations are pretty damn spot on. We can explain why Chiaki had to change her name, it's to to there being a character limit in the programing. In English, Tachibana takes up more characters than Hayasaki. The end. It is easy to see why they did that. I've explained about four or five times why the 2 and SMT were tacked onto the NA title. I can even explain why Nocturne was changed to Lucifer's Call. These are not huge mysteries, and I'm pretty sure Chiaki's page has a note about her name change in it. If Nocturne doesn't have a note about Lucifer's call it should. Honestly, Aigis is the only mystery to me. Aegis is a protective shield. That's what the word means. Specifically, in the Illiad, Pallas Athena's shield is referred to as an Aegis. Pallas Athena is Aegis's Persona. She is a robot that was specifically built to destroy shadows. She is a shell for Pallas Athena. Her shield if you will. Given how steeped in mythology SMT is, that's fairly obvious. I mean seriously, that makes sense right? I'm not talking crazy talk. But I don't see why the page's title needs to be the inaccurate one. Because then that inaccurate title will be used over and over and over in the wiki. I feel it would be better to use an accurate title and then point out the inaccuracies of the localization. Like with lucifer's call. And again, I love Atlus USA. I really do. They do some of the best localization work, and I frequently pre-order their games. I think they do a great job, there is nothing hypocritical about thinking they do great localization work, but that they make mistakes. ATLUS, and I'm talking about modern ATLUS, is a fantastic company. Revelations: Persona, a game they translated a decade ago, was bad. They a terrible job. This isn't being unfair to them, it's being honest. Seriously. Revelations: Persona is something I'm discrediting here. It is extremely bad. This is a fact, and if you don't believe me, read pretty much anything about the game anywhere. But since then, ATLUS has grown into a fantastic company that is very loyal to the source. I've said this about 12 times now. Where am I being hypocrytical and discounting entire localizations over minor things? The only entire localization is specifically Revelations: Persona in English. It was racist, buggy, half the game was cut out, badly edited, hardly made sense, seriously, it was bad. And because it was, we used information about the Japanese game. And it wasn't a problem. There are hundreds of examples of things that we've sided with the English version because there is no dispute. Teddie, all the tribe names, Maya and Tatsumi the handles, spellings of basically everything. So please do not accuse me of discrediting entire localizations, because I'm not.
We're not ignoring the PAL translation because it's convenient - but honestly can anyone claim they've played the PAL versions more than the NA, notwithstanding the JP version?
You are ignoring them out of convenience. Do we have page statistics of where our users are from? I know that in the left where it mentions how people reach out page, there are dozens of localized versions of Google that are not Google US. Can anyone claim they've played the PAL versions more? No. This is an debate between two people. While we do get traffic, you and me are the most vocal and hardest working members of the wiki. That doesn't mean that all the European users don't exist.
If that's hypocritical, I'd say ignoring inaccuracies in the North American version hypocritical, and even more hypocritical to use English words to translate our Japanese titles. I saw "Shibito Ekishi" article being created; its confusing when we use "tai" in that and "Vs." in the other two Raidou titles.
I know. When I was creating that page I noticed that and thought about that. But if we went with the super extended version of the title, we would not be making the "tai" against "vs." be any less confusing. But the words "Soulless Army" are actually more along the lines of "Super-powered corps" literally. I realize it is somewhat inconsistent, and hell, even a bit hypocritical, but I can't think of a better solution. I'd be fine with using the title "Raidou Kuzunoha vs. The Messenger of the Dead" for the sake of user clarity. We are not wikipedia and I don't see why we have to be super hard-nosed about something like that. In fact, you even supported such inconsistency: Talk:Teddie. During that I asked if we should go with Kuma because it would be more consistent and you said "we both know compromises to policies would pop up once in a while, and we don't need to be consistent to the point of distressing ourselves over minute changes." This is something I still agree with. Mostly the only reason that I was ever against translating Japanese titles is over things that can't be translated well, such as the words "Megami Tensei" or "Kagenuki", in which many, many translations exist with much debate attached to both.
BTW, I had met with some of my Japanese friends who are avid gamers and they don't know what MegaTen is! *shrug*
I'm sorry, but that has absolutely nothing to do with anything. I know avid gamers who have never played Final Fantasy before. So? I fail to see your point.If you were trying to say that the series lacks the brand recognition that I claim it does, I was in Japan when Persona 3 was released, and it was released to a lot of fanfare. In Akihabara, there were dozens of posters up for it and ads for it. None of them referred to it as a Megaten game, but rather as a long-awaited sequel to Persona 2. There were dozens of copies of the game in most game stores near the front of the store so you could pick one up. There were PS2 memory cards for sale that came with stickers featuring Persona 3. Regardless of whether or not anyone body who bought Persona 3 knew it was a Megaten game or not, there was a lot more fanfare. In the US, it was released pretty quietly, because ATLUS US doesn't have the money (or desire, I'm not sure) to create any fanfare. All of the promotion I saw for Persona 3 played up the Shin Megami Tensei title they slapped on it because not so many people played Persona 2 in the US. When ATLUS USA announced Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon, they announced it as a new Megaten game. In Japan, it was announced as the new Devil Summoner game (at least in the materials I read from Famitsu). The game market in Japan is very different than it is here, and ATLUS USA is trying to market a niche game the best that they can. I can't fault them for that. But I don't see any reason to kiss their ass over it either.
Real quick, final line: I don't mean to discredit their localizations. ATLUS USA does a great job. Please, don't misunderstand me.

SeventhEvening 16:49, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I just noticed this: I'm not gonna claim they're inaccurate in titling. It isn't a claim. Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner; Devil Summoner: Soul Hackers; Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. The Soulless Army; Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon. Count them. It is a fact. There are four titles. Number four is numbered as number 2. That is inaccuracy. It just is. I'm not just coming out of left field with crazy talk "claiming" this and that. SeventhEvening 16:56, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
I'm gonna quote something left by the bcrat icy on the matter:
Good job! I don't get to as often as I'd like, but once in a while, I peruse some stuff over here. Your "manual of style" was of interest to me. The latest revision, in particular, I found myself whole-heartedly agreeing with. There are just too many snobby "purists" out there, aren't there? If this is an English wiki, the English must come first, with all due respect to the place of the series' origins (Japan). I am as intrigued by the Land of the Rising Sun as the next guy, but really, let's be serious. We have to remember that this wiki is not just "for people who already know about SMT", but for "people who don't". Otherwise, how could they use the search engine correctly (all redirects aside), if the character's name is the Japanese one? It kind of...oh, I don't know, defeats the purpose of this site.
And I know where he's getting at. You're not even sure how to name a Japanese title despite staunchly advocating "accuracy". Then a lot of this reasoning is based on what you suppose "is" - such as "ATLUS US doesn't have the money (or desire, I'm not sure)" and whatever reasoning you gave about Aigis (and I have to admit, if that's all to the exact words then you have to be an Atlus employee or something) - meaning a lot of this isn't just inaccurate, it's really written on what you think/believe is accurate.
I know Devil Summoner has 4 titles appended with it. Let me give you my supposition: I think they wanted to indicate that it's the second title in the Raidou Kuzunoha verse and name it Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha 2, but since its Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha vs "something", they couldn't figure where to append 2 so they just stuck it on Devil Summoner. That's plausible to me, but I'm not gonna write and claim that's accurate since I'm not sure myself. But point is I am not going to act like I know Atlus Japan better than Atlus USA and stick myself with the Japanese version, ignoring the English version, citing "inaccuracies" as is.

You mentioned we're not Wikipedia and we shouldn't be so hardnosed: then are we supposed to ignore what's delivered by the official localization? Just because we're not Wikipedia, we can't emulate whatever's good from them? And in turn we do what we think is correct because according to common sense (and not the localization despite being an English wiki) that's the most "accurate"?

Plus, you pointed out that you know people are put off by the English titling. You think us writing the Japanese titling is going to attract people to play them?
Look, I hate walls of texts. But this act of "referencing the Japanese source disregarding the localization where it exists" needs to go. BLUER一番 17:47, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
The thing is, I do want to emulate what is good from them. Their strong desire to stick with the localization causes all kinds of strange problems. They have Lucifer's Call/Nocturne. They can't figure out the name of Personal Trainer: Cooking. And I agreed with Icy. Specifically I agreed most with is not just "for people who already know about SMT", but for "people who don't". Which is why it is so important that we not misrepresent the series. And I agree, we shouldn't reference the Japanese source disregarding the localization where it exists. We should disregard misrepresentation where it exist for the sake of informing people who don't know about SMT. I want them to have access to the most accurate information possible. Rather than creating another wall of text, I have to ask, What possible benefit is there for using "Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner 2: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon"? I literally cannot name a single reason to. I know it isn't for the sake of consistency, because both options are equally inconsistent. Additionally, what I said about Aegis isn't my opinion. That's logic. Seriously. I have never met a person who didn't realize that it should be Aegis because that's Pallas Athena's shield. I even tried very hard to rationalize that maybe it was AIgis and was a reference to artificial intelligence or the Japanese word for love. But it can't be done. SeventhEvening 18:10, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
The reason is simple: because it just is. It is the English title, the title Atlus chose for their localization, which is made in American English, the version of English they initially chose to translate their Japanese works for people outside the Japanese market, which is mostly us.
And trying to put logic and rationalization to this series is futile and useless, imho. If you can't put into your head how AIgis might reference AI or love in Japanese, then don't, it's as futile as figuring out why Personae appear when you crush cards - stop making sense to everything, lol! BLUER一番 18:24, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
The cards a crushed as a representation of destroying the "mask" the characters wear to hide their true selves. That makes perfect sense and is not futile at all. Megami Tensei works are extremely symbolic. Most aspects of the games are very carefully chosen and are very symbolic. The shooting in the head being a "killing" of inhibition. They are symbolic. The series is EXTREMELY logical and very rational. Out of all of Shin Megami Tensei III they were EXTREMELY careful to avoid making any of the different reasons appear evil and in fact, only use the word Evil once in the entirety of the game. So please, try again. SeventhEvening 18:54, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
First it's "purely accurate Japanese" and now "everything is symbolic"...
It's not that I don't get the whole symbolism thing. But I have pointed repeatedly above that the translation is what Atlus chose to localize its content. I can't get what they were trying to do and neither can you. BLUER一番 19:08, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
While it is true that this is an English wiki, I am going to have to side with Seven on this one. All the titles should be listed as accurately so that fans of the series know exactly how everything falls into place. I for one am relatively new to the series (I've only completed three titles thus far) and I would like to be able to see an accurate time line in order to properly piece together the over-arcing storyline. And from what I understand, Devil Summoner in not a part of the SHIN megami tensei series directly; only 1, 2, and Nocturne are. While they all take place on the same big time line, it is inaccurate (even if it is for the sake of marketing/pandering to U.S. audiences) to list it as either devil summoner 2 or a SHIN megami game.
Xyno512 14:48, 15 May 2009

While I'm still fairly new around here, after reading everyones argument I ask myself would it be so hard to make it so that when one looks for a PAL or US title they get redirected to the JP title? It seems to me that this argument is essentially nothing but splitting hairs. We're all smart people here, I'm sure we can figure this out.

If the titles should be listed as accurately then "Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon" isn't the most accurate - it's デビルサマナー 葛葉ライドウ 対 アバドン王. Unfortunately, Atlus didn't choose to write that for the North American localization. I repeat again that Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner 2: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon is the English title, the title Atlus chose for their localization, which is made in American English, the version of English they initially chose to translate their Japanese works for people outside the Japanese market, which is mostly us. BLUER一番 19:08, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
We frequently use Romanjinization, and could easily put "Devil Summoner: Kuzunoha Raidou tai Abaddon Ou" if you want to be so uptight about it if we go that way, but that's starting to be unfriendly towards the user, which is not what I am aiming for. I fully agree with Jtchort, since that's reasonable and what we've done for a long time. Xeno also seemed to side with that same sentiment. You had wanted other people's input, and some users have input their opinions. You are alone in suggesting we use "Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner 2: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon". I think the issue is more or less settled. SeventhEvening 18:03, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
This issue isn't actually splitting anyone hairs, far from it - and when that was the case, the NA titling chosen by Atlus is easily acceptable. But I can see that you guys are ruffled when I propose the change to the NA titling. This more or less reflects that you are selective / biased towards the Japanese version. That, to me, is not acceptable, especially when coming off as an English wiki. I, and I'm sure icy, had this in mind when he suggested creating a Megami Tensei wiki, using English and NA versions where applicable. And I'm still advocating that. BLUER一番 18:18, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Didn't you say there was no way I could have known what ATLUS intended? How could you know what Icy intended? When I created all the Megami Ibunroku Persona pages, I started using the English Localization, and then talked to Icy about localization. Icy wasn't really uptight about it having to be one way or the other, as long as we weren't hard-core purists and were making the wiki user friendly to help new comers to the series, something I feel we are doing with the redirection and the explanations. I feel we are still using North American localizations where applicable, with the only exception being where it betrays it's source. And why ATLUS USA's titles are acceptable. inaccuracy aside, they are confusing towards newcomers of the series and using them heavily causes the wiki to be less user friendly towards those who are not already very familiar with the series. Already I'm starting to see problems with Devil Survivor being lumped in with Shin Megami Tensei (Series), when it is not a member of that series at all. To me, this confusion and user-unfriendliness is unacceptable. SeventhEvening 18:47, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Note that it's either "デビルサマナー 葛葉ライドウ 対 アバドン王" or "Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner 2: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon" - other renditions are not the official title - that includes "Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon". You only serve to confuse if you start naming things just because you think it doesn't click with the rest of the series.
And the issue with the whole Aigis and things not clicking with the rest of the symbolism and myths, well, guess what, that's your problem. If you feel you can't connect these together - then it's your own personal problem. It's not Atlus Japan' fault, not Atlus USA's fault, its your own personal distaste. That shouldn't be reflected in a wiki that serves to inform - the wiki isn't yours and it's not dictated by your piques. It's dictated by the source - which includes Atlus USA.
And I believe my Style proposal is as neutral as it gets, and icy agreed with it. The only persons who can't accept it are the ones who are too uptight to accept that Atlus USA and its faults exists. BLUER一番 19:08, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
No, You are entirely wrong. Plenty of the Megaten titles possess official romanjinizations. "Devil Summoner: Kuzunoha Raidou tai Abaddon Ou" is a direct romanjinization (Although I may need to double check if that is a long う sound or not). Now you're being downright unfriendly. My changes and edits to the style guide that were made back in the infancy of this wiki were also as neutral as it gets and were tailored to provide the most accurate information in the most user friendly manner. Please, go right now and read the manual of style. You will see that you are violating the manual of style that was accepted, after much discussion, by icy, as well as everyone else who was active during those times. So really, maybe the whole issue with Aigis being the NA spelling is your problem. The style guide clearly states that we should side with the original Japanese when there is a dispute. It even specifically mentions Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. The Soulless Army and explains which title should be used. SeventhEvening 21:15, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

The Manual of Style is susceptible to changes in the future and this is the change I propose. And this is an acceptable change. The North American title exists and it is a fact. "The style guide clearly states that we should side with the original Japanese when there is a dispute." But what dispute? There should have been no "dispute over titling" because it clearly is the official title for the English version. The present state is fine only if you abandon the English titling for a romajinized Japanese version, which could only serve if the NA title does not exist. But official NA titles exists and we should address that when naming article titles. BLUER一番 02:58, 19 May 2009 (UTC) Additionally, icy was correct to say that this wiki should be geared towards English-speaking knowledge seekers, as he lined up in his talk page. The Japanese would surely have their own Megami Tensei wiki. BLUER一番 03:33, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Blah, blah, blah, We're a wiki in English writing about a Japanese game, blah, blah, blah, you can read my earlier post where I already made my argument against this. You're repeating yourself at this point. SeventhEvening 03:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Because I am emphasizing the fact that the NA title exists and users would be more familiar with the English localizations, and we should be none the wiser. The current manual is upending localizations and give unofficial titles - when official sources exist. BLUER一番 03:59, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

FangzV's take on this whole title shit.

Basic ideas in red.

If I'm completely wrong and missed the argument's points, delete this section and notify me on my talk page.

I've only skimmed the arguments (I'm not sitting here for an hour reading two people having a war and using walls of text for shields) but I think the title right now is fine as it is.

So far, this is what I gather as the arguement:


Here's my take on the mess, if that's really how this is going.

  • There should be no Shin Megami Tensei at the beginning of the article title. This is an entire wiki dedicated to Shin Megami Tensei. I think people know that Shin Megami Tensei is at the start of the title.

BOOM! The manual admits it. Soulless Army wasn't a part of SMT. I see no reason why King Abaddon would be if its predecessor isn't. Thus, RK.V.KA should not have SMT at the beginning of article's title.

  • I honestly couldn't care if there was a 2 in the title or not.

The idea I have in my head, as somebody who uses this wiki, is that if they're going to be looking up Raidou v. Abaddon, they'll know it's an SMT game. They'll know it's the sequel. If they don't, it says it in the article. Right next to where it says there's 4 games. If there's going to be a "2" in the title, it should be clarified that it's only the second released in America. The 2 is highly forgettable, I don't think it'll confuse anyone to leave it out of the title. The title's perfect as it is.

  • But if you really feel the need, just throw on a few redirects and we'll be fine.

Just my two cents on this. ~ FangzV ( Flame at me here) as said on 00:14, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

TL;DR: Shut up, it's fine.

agreed. SeventhEvening 03:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
What I propose is pretty simple:
"We address where an official English term exists, but when no official English term exists we address where an official Japanese term is prevalent."
This is a simple notion to acknowledge that official renditions of the title exist. All your reasons above clearly suggests that you want readers to know things beforehand. That shows a lack of concern.
Plus, there is no problem with going with the NA titling which is the official English title. The only reason why the current Manual chose to go with that decision is because of a few "translation inaccuracies", particularly from Revelations. However, at present Atlus is slowly but surely attempting to localized its titles as true to the Japanese version as possible - and I believe the time has come to address inaccuracies and accept them as they are.
And again, I advocate English. We should gear ourselves towards English-speaking readers, who clearly have been playing based on the English versions. That's why I believe English takes precedence than other languages. BLUER一番 03:25, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I understand what you propose, but you stand alone opposing all the users of the wiki who have spoken up, and you stand opposed to a Manual of Style that was approved by the founder and has been in use since the number of articles on the wiki were only double digits. I could write an argument against what you just stated, but it would be the same as what you've already read, just as that argument you just typed is something I've already heard you say countless times during this discourse. I'm really pretty tired of the whole thing, and since you're outvoted and are running counter to what is the established protocol, I consider the entire issue settled. I can't seem to get you to understand my point of view, but it's not my problem anymore, it's yours. You can propose changes to the Manual of Style, but I have a feeling that this exact argument will just repeat itself. It might be possible that you are right and that Icy does agree with you, but even if that is true, Icy didn't do much other than create this wiki. Even though I became less active, I am still one of the people have contributed the most to this wiki (not my opinion, but rather from the numbers that Wikia keeps) and the wiki is made by the SMT fans for the SMT fans. So even if you don't like it, the fans have spoken. SeventhEvening 03:43, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
When has it been that you decided when to end it and you decided to say votes / majority ends discussions. As of yet, I have not concede any defeat - because as it stands this decision was made based on what users "think", not based on the official titling made by the source - and I am still not convinced that the Japanese version upends and North American titling made. This is an English wiki geared towards English-speaking readers and should be made as such. I will continue to advocate official English titles. BLUER一番 03:51, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I know. Earlier you wanted input of other users, now you don't. Advocate away. If you come up with a new argument, I'd be happy to respond. But until then, I've pretty much spoken my piece and you can find my rebuttal with ctrl+f. In the meantime, I'm going back to business as usual. SeventhEvening 04:11, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
It's not that I didn't want input: but clearly most of the input I get are from one side of the argument. There's hardly any input that can be seen as considering the changes presented. BLUER一番 04:19, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Right. You wanted input that agreed with you. I considered what you are proposing, but I don't agree. I do not see enough pros to what you are proposing. I just keep getting "because it just is" or "well, guess what, that's your problem." or "We are an English Wiki" (direct quotes). To me, none of that is a good reason to change what has worked so well thus far. I know that we're an "English Wiki" (although I prefer "Wiki in English"), but that isn't a reason to do what you propose. You've also ignored my rebuttal that we're talking about a game designed for Japanese audiences and that has more titles that are not translated then ones that are. I'm not ignoring or hating on the English localization, but it is still just that: Localization. You've been acting like I'm proposing we make a Japanese wiki multiple time, when I have no such desire. I want to provide the most accurate, most true to the source, most user friendly database about a game that is extremely Japanese. I'm not an unreasonable person, I just haven't heard a single reasonable reason to do what you've suggested other than "just 'cuz". SeventhEvening 04:41, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
It is obvious to me that this wiki has been overtaken by elite purists (quote: the most accurate, most true to the source, most user friendly database about a game that is extremely Japanese). I cannot deal with fanboys right now. BLUER一番 04:47, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Sure. That's why my tone changed. I was tired of dealing with an elitist localization fanboy. The goal you quoted me on should be your goal too, as well as everyone's. There is nothing wrong with wanting a wiki to be accurate, true to the source, and user friendly. Isn't that the goal of all information sources? And there is nothing elitist or purist about claiming megaten to be extremely Japanese. Almost every single title have taken place in Japan, staring ethnically Japanese people, steeped in Japanese mythology. You just seem to want to kiss Atlus USA's toes and pretend they can't make mistakes. I want to use the English localization anytime we can, as long as it doesn't conflict with anything else or mislead the users. You act as if you're on Atlus's payroll and that it is unacceptable to not use their official word. SeventhEvening 04:55, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm no localization fanboy. I don't speak English. I do not live in America. I am not an Atlus USA employee. I can only argue for so long. I can say the same for you: you act as if you're an Atlus Japan employee who wants to correct whatever mistakes Atlus USA has done or something or rather. And Megaten employs a lot of mythological sources, not just from Japan. Just because it's Japan-centric, you're leaving out any NA localization. That's just crude. You can come up with a lot arguments against the NA title, but guess what, Atlus localized the title as such and you cannot do anything about it. You can't convince Atlus to change the title as much as you want to, and now you've decided since that's the matter, you're forcing the wiki to use the title you think should have been. That's a purist attitude. BLUER一番 05:07, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. I, like you, proposed we do things one way, and I provided plenty of reasons why we should. As I've said, for what seems like a million times, I like the localization very much. I want to use it anytime that it doesn't conflict or mislead anyone, which is 99% of the time. When I suggest that you provide me with reasons for what you propose, you tell me I'm an elitist fanboy. I admit, I should not have lashed out and done the same to you, but being called a fanboy for proposing we mix the English localization and the Japanese source (and requesting explanation of why we shouldn't) really rubs me the wrong way. SeventhEvening 05:20, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Start Over

I'm going to star over, then, since I am being antagonized someway or rather.

  1. As much as we can't get over it, the North American title exists as much as the Japanese title. This is a fact we cannot change no matter how much we dislike the localization, or how much localization is inaccurate. I know "it's just is" is not as strong as the many reasons you wrote, but I cannot fathom why "it's just is" is not an acceptable reason.
  2. The current style does not pose a problem, so I cannot foresee how the change is going to pose a problem - can you list them out?

That's two questions I'd like to see a respond next. And please, just simple short succint responds will do. I can't read walls of text, that maybe my problem, but it's also yours if I cannot get what you are trying to say. BLUER一番 06:06, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Alright. I'm sorry, I didn't know that English wasn't your first language, so I was typing in paragraph form. I'll make some bullet points. First, my response:
  1. Just because is never an acceptable reason. Yes, the English titles exist. No, I cannot change them. Really, I don't care that much about changing them. While yes, the English, European, and Japanese titles do all exist the same amount, the Japanese title is the original one and dictates the branch in the Megami Tensei tree it belongs. We sort all of the games via the Japanese titles. Just look at Shin Megami Tensei (Series).
  2. This one is quite easy. The current style does not pose a problem. Why change it?

Now. Here are my arguments as to why we should not use the extended title.

  1. It violates the manual of style. This reason is as weak as the "just because" argument, but it has to be said. The Manual of Style was approved by you, me, Icy, and Akkilmar during the early stages of the site. It has worked fine so far.
  2. Attaching Shin Megami Tensei to the front of every title that was released in America causes confusion. None of the those titles are categorized or treated as if they were "Shin Megami Tensei" games.
  3. In addition, it's caused there to be edits to Shin Megami Tensei (Series) that were pretty far off base, like adding Devil Survivor. The Protagonist page has similar problems. If Devil Survivor was listed as "Megami Ibunroku" (as it is now), this confusion could have been prevented.
  4. Accuracy. I've already gone over that, and I know you disagree with it.
  5. It creates more coherency and helps spread correct information. A visitor who is new to the series my drop in just to see some small piece of information about Persona 3. If the title of the page is only Persona 3, and the information talks about the Persona series, the user, if they are very new to the series, may wonder why and read about how they are separate branches. If the title includes Shin Megemi Tensei, they likely won't.
  6. Xeno mentioned above that it is helpful to help new players like himself see how things fall in place.
  7. FangzV also created a pretty compelling argument directly above. It's bulleted as well.
  • I'm not really even that uptight about making sure the titles are Japanese or anything. We also have the reason of:
  1. It is very redundant. Hell, we could use the official English title, but just remove the words "Shin Megami Tensei" from it due to redundancy. It's at the front of every Megaten title post Nocturne, so it's just plain redundant.

I'm not trying to discredit anything or anyone. I just want the wiki to be accurate and user-friendly. I don't even dislike the localization. SeventhEvening 16:08, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I can only accept all of this reason, purist as it is, if and when the NA/PAL titling is mentioned in the body of the article, especially at the intro. That's the only compromise. BLUER一番 17:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Isn't that EXACTLY how things are? In the intro to this article, it plainly says, and I quote "Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner 2: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon, the North American title for [デビルサマナー 葛葉ライドウ 対 アバドン王] (Debiru Samanā Kuzunoha Raidō tai Abadon Ō)". There is no If or When there. It is plainly identified, and I have no desire to change that at all. That is already how it is. I don't understand why you keep getting all worked up and are attacking me and leaving nasty messages about me being a "purist licking the grimy boots of the Japanese" on icy's page. I'm not fucking attacking you. I thought we would finally be able to talk about this like normal human beings, but apparently, we cannot. When and If you decide to stop trying to insult me and actually talk about why we should do as you propose, I'm going to do things the way that we have been. There seems to be no getting through to you. SeventhEvening 17:49, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Oh please... that intro was like that because I wrote it recently - because apparently a purist community that mysteriously reappeared two days ago went missing for months - I already told you why we should do as I propose, but your purist reasons got in the way. So yeah. BLUER一番 18:48, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
No you haven't. Your reasons were "because" and "it won't mess anything up". And that is it. I didn't mysteriously re-appear, I usually show up when I don't have free time or when new Megaten games come out. The intros of most of the articles are styled that way, just look at Persona 3. It's how things have always been done. I am in favor of keeping them that way. Just because I can't be active all the time doesn't mean anything. If you look at the statistics of the wiki, I'm still a top contributor. In fact, I've contributed more than you. I've been an editor on the wiki since the beginning, and wasn't labeled "a purist" until just yesterday, despite the fact that I've been doing the same things since the beginning. For some reason, you've recently decided that it's your way or no way and that the localization is the only way, and that is ridiculous. You clearly cannot be reasoned with. SeventhEvening 21:16, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
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