I know he's a daeva, but is it just name association then? Are there any accounts that link them together, and it's not just a name thing? Zoroasterism came before Hinduism, and I'm sure that the Indians and Persians had no religious conflicts during those times. Just looked it up, you're right, sorry about that. --BOXN 23:12, June 15, 2012 (UTC)--JupiterKnight 23:22, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

Though I'm thinking of linking it to the Rudra page which I didn't realize exist since that's most likely the of these two Shivas that became a demon of Zoroastrianism.
Since Rudra is a predecessor of Shiva, and Saurva is linked to Rudra the most, just put it on the Rudra page, not the Shiva one. --BOXN 23:33, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

You seem to be here 24/7. I've been looking at your edits and damn man, talk about workaholic. lol The Truthful Knight 08:05, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

I haven't been able to sleep recently. So I've been doing edits when I can.--JupiterKnight 08:10, June 20, 2012 (UTC)
That isn't good... Perhaps you should try sleeping pills? Well, I guess I shouldn't be one to talk considering my sleeping schedule is go to sleep at 5 am and wake-up 2pm. The Truthful Knight 08:13, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

Re: Merge Pages and Changing Category Names Edit

>I noticed earlier that Loycheckta and Tschaggatta are the same demon. I figured I'd let you know so you can merge them as I don't try myself with doing such a thing.

Which name is the "right" name? If you don't know what is the "right" name then what is the most recent one?

>Also after seeing this page I was wondering if we should rename the Mongolia Mythology Category to the Uliger Mythology category?

Yeah, I think we should too.

>Also after seeing this page I was wondering if we should rename the Mongolia Mythology Category to the Uliger Mythology category?

Why Moh Shuvuu?
« 1099769-p2ep tarot 16 Zahlzeit 05:56, July 31, 2012 (UTC)
The recent name is Tschagatta. Loycheckta is his Soul Hackers name. With some help from a friend I redirected Loycheckta to Tschagatta earlier. As for Moh Shuvuu, she comes from Buryat lore. Uliger covers myths from both Mongolia and Buryat.--JupiterKnight (talk) 06:22, July 31, 2012 (UTC)
Then yeah, you might as well put Moh Shuvuu in the new Uliger category then.
« 1099769-p2ep tarot 16 Zahlzeit 19:26, July 31, 2012 (UTC)
Will you be deleting the Category:Mongolia Mythology? I've already added Moh Shuvuu to it and plan on adding the two Mongolian creatures to it.--JupiterKnight (talk) 20:36, July 31, 2012 (UTC)
I'm not deleting it because actually they delete by themselves if there is no content associated with the category, same with creating them.
« 1099769-p2ep tarot 16 Zahlzeit 06:21, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

Know where I can find interviews on the Raidou games? Edit

I've been hoping to find some but google search isn't helping. I read on TV Tropes that Raidou's game is part of the Persona series but it wasn't verified with a source. The person claimed the creators said it in an interview. I'm assuming whoever posted that on TV Tropes was mistaken because after playing through both Raidou games, I've only ever found references to SMT1 and SMT2. The fact Lucifer is in the second Raidou game led me to believe that Raidou couldn't possibly be part of the Persona series. YHVH seems to be indirectly mentioned by the Lawful demons and most of the sidequests of both games either reference SMT1-2 or Nocturne. I got the impression Raidou had to be a prelude of the main series and a way to tie-in Nocturne even more.

Do you happen to know where I can find interviews for the Raidou games? It's fine if you can't help but I figured you're the man I should ask about this since you're always on top of SMT info. The Truthful Knight (talk) 18:21, July 31, 2012 (UTC)

I think the Raidou games are set up so that they can go before either SMT of Devil Summoner/Persona. However, the Devil Summoner games are in the same world as the Persona ones: both games are in continuity with if... (Tamaki is a minor character in the first two Persona games, and Hazama appears in Soul Hackers), and one and a half Devil Summoner characters appear in Persona 2 (Detective Daisuke is from Soul Hackers, and is implied to be possessed by Kyouji Kuzunoha from Devil Summoner)--Otherarrow (talk) 18:30, July 31, 2012 (UTC)
I honestly can't tell you. However in a thread on another site earlier they were talking about Thor and that it mentions his identity Thorman from Shin Megami Tensei died at the age of 68 in the world of Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner. Here's the image they translated.
Devil Summoner. Not translated image
--JupiterKnight (talk) 20:36, July 31, 2012 (UTC)
Ah, well thank you both for trying. It's a shame the PSP version never made it here due to Sony's corporate policy. The Truthful Knight (talk) 03:47, August 6, 2012 (UTC)

Re: Japanese Database Edit

In that case, can you cite the exact page you found the information from as a source using <ref></ref> replacing the {{fact}} template on the page? I'll clean up any formatting issues as long as you get that link on the page.
« 1099769-p2ep tarot 16 Zahlzeit 15:01, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

Devil Summoner SpritesEdit

So I saw you added stats to some Devil Summoner bosses, which was neat. So, do you think add sprites to the other demon pages with SMT:DS stats?-- 23:18, January 22, 2013 (UTC)

I might add for some, but for now I'm just adding stats with sprites for the ones who don't have much info on their pages and some bosses that I like.--JupiterKnight (talk) 23:22, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
Well, that's fine as long as you add in some sprites someday.-- 23:31, January 22, 2013 (UTC)

Dr. Thrill ArtworkEdit

Where did you find it? I've never seen it before.-- 03:19, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

I downloaded it from a link given on a anonymous board. It along with several other sketches and artwork came from different Novels in the series like ...If and just some pics of Kazuma Kaneko. Vampire Takashi and the Inaruna sketches were also included. Though I didn't add the inaruna ones. --JupiterKnight (talk) 03:24, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

Soul Hackers demon statsEdit

Yeah, it has stats of all of the demons, including the 3DS-exclusive ones. It doesn't have stats for the Raidou/Raido ultimate boss fight, however.-- 21:01, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

DSSHstats Template Category IssueEdit

It should be fixed now.-- 22:09, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I wasn't sure what was going on cause I couldn't find it.--JupiterKnight (talk) 22:17, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Stat RequestsEdit

Can you please use "Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner" instead of simply "Devil Summoner"? It's a bit misleading, and the former is the official title.

Also, do you know where I can find stats for SMT:If... bosses? This one site had stats for the demons, but not for the bosses.-- 22:57, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

Here.--JupiterKnight (talk) 23:05, February 9, 2013 (UTC)
Thanks.-- 23:08, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

Doman's NameEdit

I don't recall his name ever having a 'u' in it. Or did you find this out from a Soul Hackers 3DS screenshot?-- 23:18, February 16, 2013 (UTC)

It's on Atlus USA's Soul Hackers.--JupiterKnight (talk) 23:40, February 16, 2013 (UTC)

Herald/Seraph Edit

I know that Seraph is one of those race names that has gotten changed over the years (to Herald, which I personally think is a cooler sounding name) but the race page is already at Seraph (race), so could you pothole Herald to there instead of leaving redirects? Also, while I am on the subject, could you help out with getting rid of redundant categories if you see them? Someone a long time ago got the bright idea to add a category for every name the races ever had as separate category. It's a mess. I've been trying to "correct" them when I see them, but any help is appreciated.--Otherarrow (talk) 14:58, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

Personas Edit

Please stop putting 'personae' in category names. US English uses Personas and you're adding more that needs to be cleaned up. Great Mara (talk) 04:30, April 13, 2013 (UTC)

Lucifer in SMTIVEdit

Nintendo UK? Really? Where can I find the footage, or the article for that matter? Also, I chanced across a scan with an ally called 'Lucifer' and he looks kinda different don't ya think? GalaxiaWild (talk) 11:09, April 18, 2013 (UTC)

Probably a new design. Go to around 35:30 36:07 is the shot that shows Lucifer in the fifth party member spot that the human allies tend to be at.--JupiterKnight (talk) 11:24, April 18, 2013 (UTC)
I can't help but still think about the fact that Nintendo UK is showing it. Does that imply a UK/European release? GalaxiaWild (talk) 12:00, April 18, 2013 (UTC)


You don't capitalize protagonist, unless it's due to grammatical reasons. -- 21:53, April 18, 2013 (UTC)

Yes I know, I just have a bad habit of doing it from when I would write Protag for Yu Narukami on other sites.--JupiterKnight (talk) 22:05, April 18, 2013 (UTC)

Soul Hacker sprites?Edit

Where did you get your sprites for Soul Hackers? I was comparing the sprites you uploaded to mine and mine seem a bit more blurry in comparison but I haven't altered the original sprites that I obtained and any changes I made I put in a seperate folder so I'm not sure what's going on. MrRaui (talk) 20:49, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

In particular the sprites I mean of Apsu, Samyaza and Moowis' second form. The normal demon sprites seem about the same though MrRaui (talk) 20:54, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

I got them from here.--JupiterKnight (talk) 21:13, April 28, 2013 (UTC)
And I got my sprites from here. apparently they were from the PS1 version of the game MrRaui (talk) 21:19, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

No, I don't. That's just who it sounded like to me. You can edit it if you want to, I don't mind.

I can tell for certain that Yuichi is Yuri Lowenthal, though.

MTI & MTII-related sitesEdit

Since you're linking to sites with information on the older games in the series, here are some more you might add:

  • [1]: Maps, list of demons and spells, as well as a walkthrough of Megami Tensei.
  • [2]: Same as the above, but for the Megami Tensei II.
  • [3]: A site that's even more comprehensive than the previous, it also has a walkthrough that much more complete than any that I have found. -- 05:57, June 17, 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. I'm mostly making it a page where those who understand Japanese can search up that info without having to try to find sites themselves.--JupiterKnight (talk) 06:12, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

Names in the Appearances SectionEdit

Specifying which games that a alternate name was used in is better than not doing so at all. -- 14:01, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

Devil Children stat templates Edit

Can you please explain why you removed all effect and level parameters from these stat templates? Any reason that the skills in Devil Children do not deserve explanation? -- Inpursuit (talk) 04:37, August 4, 2013 (UTC)

Demons in Devil Children do not gain skills by leveling up because they don't level up besides the main characters demon partner. They get them by fusing other demons into them, including the main characters demon partner who gets skill depending on how many demons are fused into it. As for skills, we might as well put the effects of skills for those games on the skill pages for those games and only DemiKids lacks a skill page.--JupiterKnight (talk) 13:49, August 4, 2013 (UTC)

Handy tip Edit

When using the upload page to upload file(s), you can write down the category in the summary field so you don't need to edit the file description page again for adding category. Frankly the upload page has such instruction already. -- Inpursuit (talk) 03:57, August 16, 2013 (UTC)

Majin Tensei site Edit

I noticed that you have sites for the older games, and a while back I found this site for Majin Tensei: It has maps and ending requirements and stuff, so I thought it might be helpful. --Bettafishrule2579 (talk) 17:46, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

I'll be adding it to the lists. Thanks.--JupiterKnight (talk) 17:36, September 6, 2013 (UTC)
I've found a site with Giten Megami Tensei info, by the way. -- 23:12, September 7, 2013 (UTC)
And here's one for the Telenet version of Megami Tensei. -- 02:54, November 12, 2013 (UTC)
Got it.--JupiterKnight (talk) 01:33, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

Card Summoner Status Edit

Can you create for me? I am new at This.... Here are the Stats: Level, HP, MP, Race, Strength, Defense, Magic, Speed, 3 skills. Do it please? Jonathan Summoner (talk) 17:50, December 28, 2013 (UTC)

What is the games color?--JupiterKnight (talk) 17:51, December 28, 2013 (UTC)

Let me see... WHITE and BLUE. Jonathan Summoner (talk) 18:13, December 28, 2013 (UTC)

What kind of blue? There are different kinds of blue and the color will be the one used in the template.--JupiterKnight (talk) 18:15, December 28, 2013 (UTC)

I was thinking in Turquoise... that ok? Jonathan Summoner (talk) 18:28, December 28, 2013 (UTC)

If that's the blue used for the game then yes.--JupiterKnight (talk) 18:33, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
Maybe easier to pinpoint what you want in screenshots or something. Are you looking for a blue like that, that, or that? These are just screencapping off a couple minutes of a let's play video. Not sure if there's another hue that's more prominent. --Zettaizetsubou (talk) 18:57, December 28, 2013 (UTC)

Ronde Edit

That was all the information I had. Can you give me a site or a hint to my resarch? I am getting tired of losing money with uselless searchs, can you help me, with Ronde? Jonathan Summoner (talk) 20:02, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

PTS intro changes Edit

May I know why the changes ie to voice actors were made? BLUER一番 18:45, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

Since I recalled Personas being included in the profile section I figured the voice actors might as well be there. Then I remembered that someone also did it for Touma Shikura's page ages ago.--JupiterKnight (talk) 19:00, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
True, the page was written that way back before there's some form of standard. I am used to writing the real world information ie voice actors in the intro since the Profile section is set aside for their roles in the game or story - which is also why the VAs are written in the infobox. Let's set that as the standard - Profile for story relevant roles - as per MOS. BLUER一番 19:09, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

Hey Jupiter Knight, do you mind telling me where you remember hearing that the Catholic church is a place to worship the Great Will in Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon? You mentioned this on a question in the Temple of Gaia forum page. I do not ask this because I doubt you, as I remember seeing it in there myself awhile back. But I cannot seem to find it again. Would you mind telling me where you remember hearing it? Thanks --Wolfen1356 (talk) 14:16, April 1, 2014 (UTC)

Kyuuyaku Megami Tensei SiteEdit

Here; has maps, encounters, item lists, stats, etc. -- 03:43, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

Persona Q HQ Art Edit

Hi there, could I possibly ask for the source of your Persona Q Art as I'm tracking down high resolution versions of each character art. PQ_-_Yukari.png

This looks like it was compressed down from the original version and made transparent. If you could help in anyway shape or form that'd be great thanks. 13:17, December 5, 2014 (UTC)

I'm afraid you are wasting your time asking me. An anonymous poster had posted them on another site, but they disappeared after adding the ones I posted.--JupiterKnight (talk) 23:42, December 5, 2014 (UTC)

Re: categoriesEdit

I'm sorry, I didn't know that happened. I'm just editing characters information and such, I didn't mean to remove categories or anything. I don't even know how. Frost190 (talk) 02:49, February 1, 2015 (UTC)

There's a page that I want to edit, but after you said that whenever I edit the categories are somehow removed or put into weird places, I want to make sure that won't happen again. What should I do so it won't happen again? Because I really don't know how the categories at the pages that I edit became that way. Frost190 (talk) 02:59, February 1, 2015 (UTC)
I'm not exactly sure how you remove them, so I can't be sure. Typically categories are on the right side of the page for me, but that's for the Wikia Layout. The Monobook Layout I believe has them at the bottom of the page.--JupiterKnight (talk) 03:02, February 1, 2015 (UTC)

SMT IMAGINE stats template Edit

{{Stats}} is applicable for IMAGINE as well, but that requires someone to complete module:Skills/SMTIM first. I know it's not a trivial task, but it's better than using the legacy template and then change it back to the new format. -- Inpursuit (talk) 04:11, March 4, 2015 (UTC)

I know, but right now I don't have the time to go and fill a module for it. So I'm going to at least add stats when I can. Because I took so long on the DemiKids one Tathra went and filled it up, and I would like to at least finish what I start instead of forcing others to do it instead.--JupiterKnight (talk) 05:02, March 4, 2015 (UTC)

PQ Images Edit

Thank you for the PQ artwork uploads. Would we be able to find images that have no watermarks instead? BLUER一番 22:10, March 5, 2015 (UTC)

I don't think so. The uploader added it to the same site the strategy guide is found.--JupiterKnight (talk) 23:10, March 5, 2015 (UTC)


Brah, what's with the deletion of what I added on YHVH? That was the explicit revelation and shocking understanding of YHVH throughout the latter-half of the game. The White's revelation adds onto the Mother's revelation in SJ that YHVH was a false God. He's a god of convenience created by humankind to suppress their nihilistic impulses about their own lives.

From the SMTIV game itself:

  • After rejecting White Issachar genocidal proposal: “Will even you put your possibilities for a future… Even after we have shown you many times there is no future for the human race?”
  • White Issachar "It is our fate to endlessly repeat the same mistakes... Given this, what other salvation can there be than returning everything to naught…? The most proper course of action regarding this world that killed him... I will demonstrate it to you using this form. Freedom and order, destruction and sustenance. Man is a pitiful creature who cannot escape that cycle. If you see possibility in such people, then you are truly blind...Why wouldn't you save me even unto the very end...?"
  • White Hugo “Humans are but prisoners of God’s expectations. God’s plan has ever led to our ruin… You will surely follow the same path.” 
  • White K“…Your actions are abominable. No matter how much you struggle, your despair will never be healed. Very well… as your forebear, I will teach you… The splendor of nonexistence… Why will you not attempt to release mankind, trapped as they are in God’s plan…? Your obeisance… it is beyond redemption…
  • Merkabah (Neutral Path): "The weak humans need an absolute as a foundation of their faith. Something that can banish despair… That is God."
  • Angel Gabriel: “This is the Expanse… A world created by the thoughts of men. The White are also an aggregation of thought. They are a portion of this space.” </span></p>
  • Lucifer: As long as humans exist, beings such as myself, God, and the White will never truly disappear.

The Truthful Knight (talk) 19:18, August 26, 2015 (UTC)

  • The White point out on the Neutral path that humans believe in God because it's convenient and easy for them rather than accepting the world as it is. It's a product of laziness. The White and their nihilism are actually a product of the cycle of Law and Chaos conflict overseen by God, 'not an attempt to suppress it at all. Merkabah is also a known liar, saying how Flynn and Isabeau would be accepted into Mikado on the Neutral path if they had accepted the lord, when it showed on the Law route that it always planned on killing Flynn for coming into contact with the unclean. Likewise Isabeau for reading manga.
  • The quest detail comments made by the client Gabriel for killing the White will mention after killing several of them that they have "Gained knowledge beyond their ken" about God. Effectively meaning they embody despair upon learning the true nature of God. So when one of the beings that comprises Merkabah also contradicts it starts getting dubious. The nihilism is the product of learning of God's role in the universe. The clients comments change for Stephen and Hikaru/Lucifer as well in case you didn't know.
  • This is part of why they criticize going down either path, because while Chaos try to defy the system it is ultimately futile because the "other cells" will repair the broken one and bring it back to order and vice versa and that humans are trapped by God's expectations even when they go chaos. This is reinforced by Mastema and even Gabriel commenting on Chaos and Walters route about how going against the Lord is a way to learn of the Lord as well.
  • Gabriel: You are the sons of man chosen by our Lord, yet you have been led astray by the temptation of demons. At the end of the path you have chosen, you will learn how powerless you are and how great is the Lord. That is why we allow your continued existence. As long as the possibility for you to repent your sins remains...
  • And a single games info should never be taken as absolute fact for all games, since it can be changed at a later date. The Makai in Shin Megami Tensei II is different from the one in IV and interviews for II point out the Kabbalah and Jewish Mysticism was made to understand it, while its existence in IV is closer to something found in Persona.--JupiterKnight (talk) 02:30, August 27, 2015 (UTC)
    • Also The False God in Chains is clearly in reference to the Piece of God taking the form of Demiurge, who is not the Godly Spirit that had gone rogue in IV.--JupiterKnight (talk) 02:39, August 27, 2015 (UTC)
  • First, regarding SMTIV Demiurge, he didn't "go rogue" and there is no indication within the story that he was rogue. He was referred to as the Godly Spirit form of God after you beat him and Lucifer shows up and that was it. And you clearly don't understand my point. The White reveal that God was created by humanity as a convenience to suppress their nihilism about life itself. They explicitly say this several times. God isn't the ultimate end all, be all of existence. He's just a crutch utilized by humankind. Lucifer represents their infinite desires and God represents something to cling to and rely upon. This has been mentioned in Shin Megami Tensei II and they expanded the information with the revelation that God truly is a human product of illusion that creates meaning for the meaningless. While what you state about God's role is true, his origins aren't being the Creator; he's just a human construct. It further explains why Lucifer and God act inconsistent at times, they change depending upon humanity's desires because humanity repeats it's mistakes endlessly by believing in God. Merkabah, Gabriel, The White, and Lucifer all mention that humanity's will is what made God and gives him strength.
  • The true nature of God, and why the White couldn't take it since they're aggregate sentience of humanity's will, is that God will always be clung to and chaotic impulses will always fight against it. It's an endless battle.
  • Furthermore, ignoring Strange Journey just because you don't like the information it mentioned isn't a valid argument. It's named SMT and was originally intended to be SMT4 until they changed it. But it's still an SMT title and the information about the Mother Goddesses - Mother Goddesses that you meet in SMTIV as well, and one is even part of the Neutral ending - is valid. The Mother Goddesses created everything, humanity despised Chaos and created God as a convenience, God sacked the Goddesses and sealed them away, and humanity's been struggling between Law and Chaos ever since because deep down their demons to the core but try to cling to order.  
  • You're misrepresenting the "other cells" part, re-watch what the White say; they said getting away from God leads inexorably down a path of destruction that they don't consider "freedom" and that God's order will fall to Chaos and Chaos will fall to God's order eternally. They don't believe Chaos is true freedom and it's not a good enough response since all it does is return humanity to it's natural and demonic state. There's no winning with either side as a result which is why they want to give-up and commit to extremination of all life as the "salvation" because existence seems like meaningless suffering to them.
  • They're not "trapped by God's expectations" when they go to Chaos and Chaos is not a "Way to the Lord". Did you even play the game? First of all, Mastema only says that you're on a path to the Lord in the neutral route. In Chaos, he's disgusted with you. When White Hugo said "humans are but prisoners of God's expectations", he was specifically referring to choosing the Law route. After you see the Chaos world, they explain that Chaos is just as idiotic of a choice and just as meaningless as choosing God. You need to keep these statements in their proper context, as I have. The Truthful Knight (talk) 05:33, August 27, 2015 (UTC)
    • YHVH is a being that brings despair. That's why only the Neutral Route has Hope. Law has Goodwill which supports Hope but is not Hope itself. Neither is Spite. Demons also crave Hope as it is not tied to Chaos or Law. One of the NPCs in Reverse Hills even mentions how they can't produce the Hope the demons crave in their farm because of the state Tokyo is in. This is reflected in how Kiyoharu who blindly followed God had his hope destroyed by the Avatar of God Ancient of Days and learning that he was wrong.
    • The White are specific in their point that going Chaos will inevitably lead back into Law and vice versa. That's why they have a problem with it. It solves nothing in the grand scheme of things because someone like Akira will try to bring back Order in Infernal Tokyo just like he tries to bring back Chaos in Blasted Tokyo. That is God's scheme.
    • Demiurge going rouge is pointed out in the Challenge Quest details to slay him. Like I said you need to read those. Not to mention LUcifer pointing out that it was pretending to be the creator

Just to show how it.

  • White Hugo (Chaos): Struggle all you like in the world God made, but you will eventually be grounded up in His Schemes...
  • White K (Chaos): It is impossible to thwart God's curse by pure force. All you get is a false sense of liberation. It is a far cry from true freedom.
  • White Isabeau (Chaos): You prize power and attempt to make your way through force of will... But it is because of that you will remain shackle to God's world.
  • White Issachar (Chaos): Do you recall those lands? That infernal world, ruled by violence. Those who yearned for freedom ended up desiring order aferall.

All these comments are about how futile it is to go chaos because humans are still enslaved to God and His will. That's why the choice is idiotic. They will crave God's order in the end and He will win. Even at the end of the Chaos route Lucifer wants FLynn to become King and bring back Order and thus God's will, which shows that Lucifer is still a prisoner to God's expectations like anyone else.

  • The thing that should also be taken into context is that Law and Chaos are just using Humans and demons as pawns in its conflict. Their battle is what creates the flow of time and keeps the universe going. Nocturne was all about this since the Conception required destruction of the universe (Chaos) to give rise to the Reasons (Order) for an endless cycle. That's how YHVH/The Great Will keep the universe going. By perpetuating an eternal conflict between both.
  • Humans are not the only thing that can influence the world. That's a recent thing that Lucifer points out in a Visionary Item for II. The old gods were the big players and the world had its own rules for that time, but things changed to be more human centric. However, not everything is influenced by humans, the Fake YHVH was a crutch made by the three Archangels to give meaning to their actions. Jewish Mysticism originates from humans trying to comprehend Makai and its appearance rather than the other way around. That's why it is shaped like the Sephirot. It was always like that and humans glimpsed it and wanted to understand it.
  • This is also reflected in how the Mother Goddesses predate humanity and demons existed before humans were a thing in Strange Journey. Humans are the just the latest reincarnation of a previous species that evolved and lived a life of decadence by creating a civilization that ruined the earth.
  • I was not ignoring Strange Journey, I was pointing out False God in Chains is referencing Demiurges role in Gnosticism as the false creator. Even the piece taking Metatrons form laments how he had taken the form of a False God.--JupiterKnight (talk) 12:46, August 27, 2015 (UTC)

Yomotsu HirasakaEdit

You'll need to edit the Yomotsu Hirasaka page so that it is a location in the series instead of just being a Persona dungeon.

Expanse Edit

There's no distinction made between it and other forms of the Expanse in the SMTIV Artbook. It's even referred to as a demon world expanded and broadened by human thoughts after the Goddess of Tokyo made it. The Truthful Knight (talk) 10:17, December 30, 2016 (UTC)

And the way it works is fundamentally different from other games besides II and IV as well. So a distinction has to be made, just like II is the only time Makai works the way it did, or how Lucifer is the ruler of it in a number of games. JupiterKnight (talk) 11:03, December 30, 2016 (UTC)
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