Forum:Nevermind

EDIT: I posted all this on an old YHVH thread, but to my surprise the thread didn't refresh up as the "newest thread". So I have decided just to copy and paste what I said there on this new thread.

Alright, I have seen some fans say that YHVH is not TGW or that he is merely an avatar of it. I am found quite a bit of evidence against that. Having played through the games, and literally writing down the dialogue I see, and I see hardly no logical conclusion that TGW isn't YHVH himself. Unlike many here, I will quote direct word from word dialogue from the games. I bolded many of the words to pay close attention too.

First in foremost, I will begin with SMT Nocturne, which has by far the most references to "The Great Will"

In SMT Nocturne, the Lady in Black reveals much of the backstory. She specifically states that the Labrynth of Amala is home "to those who were cast down by God." This of course fits with all other games(even the recent SMT IV) about YHVH casting down the pagan gods(INCLUDING LAW GODS PEOPLE! I will talk about this later). Now, Lady in Black also says when talking about Hijiri(Aleph)....

"Do you understand now? By the will of Amala, he was given a life of torment". If you all replay the final battle in SMT II, YHVH specifically says that HE(or "I" in first person) would punish Aleph eternally.

Second, Metatron. When you enter the Second Kalpa of the Labyrinth of Amala, he says this...

Metatron: "...Fiend, accomplice of the Fallen Angel...do you know what cause you serve? Do you realize that path your actions are leading you down? I have watched your every move from above. You have been seduced by darkness, and now you are about to defy god's will. MC, the one with a demon body and a human heart, heed my warning! End your dealings with the fallen angel, before you heart is consumed by darkness! (If you choose "Yes"): "May you be blessed by the light. As long as you do not assist him, his evil plans will surely fail. Now, return to your world, here the power of chaos will overwhelm you...I am one with god...I am his mouthpiece"

Now, pay close attention here. Note that Metatron says that the MC/Demi Fiend is about to defy God's will. This indicates that Lucifer's plans for Demi Fiend are threat to YHVH. Just in case you are curious, if you selected "No", he just warns you to leave and that "god's vengeance will strike this place anew" or something like that.

Now, literally as you leave the room Metatron just spoke to you in, walk down a short hallway, enter the room and you will notice you need to jump down a hole to continue the Second Kalpa. Facing the hole, on your left, there is a Flauros demon. Guess what he says...As I quote word from word....

Flauros: "I just heard a voice coming from your direction. It was like the voice of the universe......you weren't harmed, were you?"

Look! Flauros literally just references Metatron's voice as the voice of the universe, and Metatron literally confirms to be the mouthpiece of God(YHVH). Still not convinced after two direct evidences on Metatron's warning alone? That's okay! Lets look at what Lady in Black says at the end of the third Kalpa, right after she is explaining Aradia.

"Humans, whom by god created, created a new god...Anything is possible in the vast oceans of Amala. Nevertheless, Aradia is still an outsider, there is little she can do in a vortex world where her existence is forbidden. She is merely the god of forsaken freedom...There are many you have spoken too:the fiends...us... You have heard the voice of the absolute one, too"

Obviously, "the voice" she is referencing too is Metatron, whom she calls the voice of the absolute one, in other words, The Great Will. And again, Metatron, who he himself say many times over in the series(and in his mythology), is the voice of YHVH, in fact, he is known as the "lesser YHVH" in DeSu 1. His boss race ability is literally called that!

Is that it!? No far from it my dear friends!

Notice Dante says after you recruit him...

Dante: "The final battle between the demons and the army of god... This'll be interesting"

In Nocturne, god in this context is obviously referring to YHVH, as YHVH's referenced actions and followers prove this.

Lets look at what Lucifer, the lord of all demons, has to say right before you fight him in TDE!

Lucifer: "The Great Will shall curse you for going aginst his way, and place a heavy burden of atonement on your shoulders, for which you shall bear all eternity. Fear not, for only by receiving that curse can you truly walk the path of conquest. But first, I must know the extent of the power of darkness you hold within. Behold, the supreme power of darkness, created none other by the Great Will himself... "

Guys, lets be serious here. Do I really need to quote the direct dialogue in almost every game literally and specifically stating that Lucifer is the creation of YHVH? I can, but I seriously think you all should know it if your on this wiki...

Nocturne also has some other interesting small bits of dialogue. There are multiple times where the demons in the Labyrinth mention being cast out of heaven. Beezlebub literally states himself as "the chief of those who fell from heaven". This fits with the whole "demons vs YHVH" theme present in many games in the series, including ALL the mainline games. Also, the Messian souls in the Second Kalpa mention that God(YHVH) told them about Hikawa's plans, which prompted them to stop Hikawa. Given how we have no reason to call this soul a liar, and how it explains how the Messians became aware of Hikawa's plan, we can easily assume that YHVH is well and present.

Now, I can see no way how you can refute the dialogue in Nocturne given by those for and against YHVH, proving that he is "the Great Will". The game spells it out for you.

Next up is Strange Journey.

First, I will quote the direct proof in SJ.

If you talk to Williams on the Law path, after the alignment lock where Zelenin converts the crew...

Williams: "When I think back, we came to this world on the pretext of protecting mankind...We should be ashamed. But we have been touched by the Great Will now. He has corrected our path and led us thus far. Let us defeat Mem Aleph, purify the Earh, and create a paradise together."

Now, before I hear someone actually claim that "the Lord" in SJ isn't YHVH, let me disprove this ridiculous notion.

First off, Gore and Mem Aleph literally say that the forces of law(and the MC should he follow Mastema) are followers to the God of Order/Law. Proof? While I don't have Gore's dialogue written down(fight him on law to see), I have written down Mem Aleph's dialogue when you fight her on Law.

"So you have come to take my life, humans who have fallen to that overbearing light"

"We demons do not desire a world that has been ravaged by humans. And we desire a world shackled by the God of Order's hand even less!"

"Not only have you fallen, you have been drowned in the temptation of the arrogant God of Law."

"WITHOUT ME... THE EARTH WILL.... HAAAH... BE STOLEN BY THAT ARROGANT GOD...."

In case you never played any other SMT game before, the "God of Law/Order/Arrogant God" has always been referred to as YHVH himself. It is stated in almost all the games, and like how Lucifer was created by YHVH, I don't think I need to requite the dialogue. Even in the new iOS official translation of SMT I, both Echidna, Asura and Lucifer refer to YHVH as these titles.

Also, about Metatron in SJ, if you talk to the power guarding the door in the Angel sanctuary on a non-NG+, he tells you that he hears "The Lord's voice" on the other side telling him to not allow anyone through until deemed worthy. Obviously this is referencing Metatron. Also, after defeating Alilat, Metatron literally says "Will you free The Lord?"

Also, after Zelenin uses the "Lord's hymn" on Ryan's crew, assuming you go back to check on them(meaning NOT murdering them), Ryan is repeatedly saying "Hallelujah". In case you didn't know, "Hallelujah" is Hebrew for "Praise to JAH", which in case you didn't know, is Jehovah, and in case you didn't know again, is Yahweh, and in case you didn't know AGAIN, is YHVH.

Also for a fun-fact, did you know, that on law, when you go meet the angels who are preforming the ritual to summon a Seraph, the angels reference sacrificing themselves to their "Father"? ie: Yahweh. Oh and After Seraph is summoned, he directly references Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

Seraph: Just as our Messiah bore 40 days and 40 nights of temptation, however we have not such time. I wish that thou wouldst go to the source and disperse the mists of temptation. That shall be thy trial to gain the Lord's flame". It is obvious that the angels serve YHVH.

Oh and a demon in Horologium(forget its name, looked kind of ninja-like), says "The Angels doth call themselves an army of light...But in truth, they can do nothing without a command from on high. There is nothing to fear." In case you didn't know, "Lord on High" is a title of YHVH's.

Okay, that is enough about SJ. Lets look at Raidou Kuzunoha vs Kind Abbadon. I personally love how the entire game premise was being based on Revelations Chapter 9, First and formost, Baek Young in in game says this..

Baek Young: "I shall wait for you where thesons of man pray to the The Great Will..."

The game actually bolds this. And guess where it is? The Catholic Church. Now, NO WHERE in the game does ANY shrine get called a place of worship to the Great Will. Not even the Yatagarasu, who are law-aligned by the way, are referred to this. There are so many times Atlus could have refernces one of these shrines as a place of worship to TGW, but nope, only the Catholic Church. Coincidence? I think not.

Also, in Raidou 2, if you do the Lucifer case files, he literally says at the end of the final battle that God controls the future. Sounds awfully familiar to what Lucifer in Nocturne says about TGW. Then again, the White in SMT IV literally say that "no matter how much you struggle, you will never break free from God's schemes.". Am I the only one not seeing a pattern? Similar themes?

Also, to the persona saying that Ahura Mazda is an aspect of the Great Will like YHVH, you do realize that in Raidou 2, Asura implies that Ahura Mazda as demonized by YHVH? In the side quest, Asura is trying to travel to the future, to join the "forces of freedom who snarl at God", so that he can become Ahura Mazda again? Unless the Great Will has a serious case of Bi-polar, this kind of destroys that point...

Now onto Digital Devil Saga.

Not too much to be said, but it is important to note that Brahman is not at all YHVH. This puts a dent in the "Great Will is a combination of YHVH, Brahman, law gods etc" theory. Schroedinger specifically states that Brahman is a different God than the one Satan praised(YHVH). No, he did not say he was a related cousin/facet of an ultimate great will being. Nope, just a completely different God. It is also worth mentioning that in DDS 2, the Archangels state it is not their world, and also curse "the twisted black sun"(Brahman) and his "false kingdom". Again, puts a dent in the theory.

Now, to disprove the idea that the Great Will is a combination of Law Gods.

This theory falls flat pretty quickly. How? Well the fact that there are just as many law gods against YHVH than there is for him. In fact, some like Ishtar and Ahurza Mazda get demonized by YHVH. Even in SMT IV, Cernnunos summons an ancient god who YHVH casted down, which is Pales. In case you didn't know, Pales is Law.

Also, the law gods who are aligned with YHVH, work for him. They are not part of him, rather they serve his purposes, and in some cases, blatantly praising and worshipping YHVH.

Now, before any of you bring up SMT II's ending or Megami Tensei II(which isn't confirmed), I will address this. It is really simple. New canon takes providence over old canon. If new canon contradicts old canon, then the new canon is to be assumed. Especially when it used in multiple games, as opposed to a single line from one old not-yet-officially-translated game. Lets be realistic here. Story writers often change their ideas and direction. Given how SMT II follows SMT I's neutral ending, it is obvious Atlus wasn't thinking "multiverse/all endings canon" at the time. And considering how SMT was growing in the west....well don't expect another YHVH battle again...

To finish this off, Occams Razor dictates that with all this information, YHVH should be considered "The Great Will". Not that Occams Razor really needs to be included, as the direct word-from-word quoting proved my point, it is worth mentioning nonetheless.

Hope this all helps