Thread:Great Mara/@comment-35180808-20180624220035/@comment-3409031-20180625015220

Jesus christ...

Shido isn't revealed from the get-go, he is just a nameless NPC as far the player is concerned... a nameless NPC that assaulted a woman and put Joker in probation, we don't know he is an antagonist until much later in the game, this still applies to your logic of Yaldabaoth.

He is the main antagonist of the entire story because everything was done by him, that's the entire point of this discussion. Yes, I did say that... without the twist the character would essentially not exist since we wouldn't know there was a driving force behind everything despite being foreshadowed. A "Man Behind the Courtain" can still be the main antagonist because everything was done by him and he manipulated every pawn he has, this is the case with Yaldabaoth and Shido, Nyarlathotep with Kandori, Jun and Sudou too...

It doesn't come into conflict with what I said... without the reveal we wouldn't know he was an antagonist that's as far as it goes, and yes that would mean that he would technically not be an antagonist... but we aren't talking assumptions either way, in the end we know of his actions because the twist exists, because of his actions we know that he was the one behind every single action Shido and Akechi took without them knowing. Besides, without the twist there are still lingering foreshadows in the game that state there still isn't something right, like Igor, his dialogue, Caroline and Justine's dialogue's and their hat that say Oxymoron... even without a twist there's still things that can be put together (if the player has a brain that is).

When I said that the viewer's experience doesn't matter I meant in the sense of what is presented, not in the literal sense. Even if the player experiences more of one antagonist over the other it still doesn't deminish of what the other did even if that other antagonist did so much more behind the backs of everyone. You take more validation of what you see rather of what is revealed despite being for a breif moment. Just because you take into validation Shido over Yaldabaoth for the sole purpose of him being presented way earlier than the latter still doesn't deny that Shido wasn't behind every evil action taken into the game, that was Yaldabaoth. Thus, the viewer's experience doesn't matter when it comes to what is presented over a longer period of time, what matter's most is what the antagonistic force did... that's what I mean, unless I'm still expressing myself wrong.

I won't deny that Shido's involvement in the plot isn't massive or anything... I'm just using your logic on him as well. Shido was only a nameless and faceless NPC that assaulted a woman and put Joker in probation and we didn't know he was an antagonist until after Okumura, he wasn't in it from the get go. And as you said, Yaldabaoth doesn't need to be present in every scene to make him the main antagonist since he was the one that pulled the strings, Shido was his puppet and Shido was only an antagonist, not the main antagonist.

Shido is the top dog of the human antagonists, and yes I can argue becuase it can apply to literally everyone. Kamoshida doesn't exist until he is revelaed (thus no Ryuji or Ann), same with Madarame and Yusuke, Kaneshiro and Makoto and so on until Shido. The character of Shido doesn't exist until he was revealed as an antagonist, when we learn he is the antagonist we are told he is the one that made Joker's life a living hell (who in fact this hell was made by Yaldabaoth because he planned all of it). Yaldabaoth is the main antagonist because he was the one that did EVERYTHING, it doesn't matter if he appeared later than Shido, this fact still exists.