Talk:Devil Summoner 2: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon

Title
Alright, This page seemed to be moved to the super-super extended North American title. We should not do that. Atlus US attaches the words "Shin Megami Tensei" in the front of games it does not belong in front of simply to help draw connect to the series because it is less well known in the US. Additionally, it is the second Devil Summoner game in the US, but the fourth over all. The original title did not contain this numbering, nor the Shin Megami Tensei marker. For all the games we have on this wiki, we've stuck with the most accurate and official title possible, so we should do so with this game as well. SeventhEvening 19:34, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I beg to differ. We're an English wiki. We should be referring to the official English title as much as possible, accurate or not. We can talk about accuracy in the article itself, but the subject title should be using the official English version - unless that doesn't exist then we substitute it with the official Japanese.
 * Plus, this wiki has been "antagonizing" the localization long enough. If you want to write a Japanese wiki I wouldn't mind, but we're writing our content in English.  BLUER   一番   01:53, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * So....we should change Nocturne to Lucifer's Call? We should painstaking add the word Shin Megami Tensei to the front of every single title that ATLUS USA has released? We should return to "Revelations: Persona"? We're a wiki in English. With information about a game that is made by the Japanese. About Japanese people. Heavily influenced by Japanese culture. Filled with Japanese gods. Telling stories from a Japanese perspective. I respect ATLUS USA for bringing these titles over for a wider audience. And since the release of Eternal Punishment, ATLUS USA has really done a very respectable job on the localization. It's really great. But they also do things that are stupid or wrong for the sake of marketing. I'm sure Devil Summoner will be labeled "Shin Megami Tensei" as well instead of carrying the Megami Ibunroku title. I'm not trying to "antagonize" the localization, nor am I trying to write a Japanese wiki. I was one of the earliest editors on this wiki (as were you) and I came here to create a place where fans of the Megaten universe could obtain the most accurate information possible. I don't understand why you are so intent on antagonizing the source. I've truly valued your input, even though we sometimes disagree on things. But I really don't understand this one. The fact of the matter is that we are not creating a wiki for something like Final Fantasy, where what you are suggesting makes sense. The most accurate information is the original source material. Things like Kuma being changed to Teddie are perfectly logical and maintain the same level of accuracy and meaning despite being altered. The title that ATLUS USA gave to this game was purely to help them market. It's referred to as Devil Summoner 2 so that people aren't confused by the fact that they missed out on two Saturn games that were never localized (and thus refuse to buy the game). The words Shin Megami Tensei were added in order to attract people that know nothing about the series, but might have played one or two of the other titles (since the brand lacks the automatic recognition that other franchises have). From a marketing point of view, where the goal is to sell as many copies as possible, this makes perfect sense but from an informational standpoint, it is terribly illogical and, in fact, more confusing. I buy ATLUS USA's products and support their localization efforts, but I see no reason at all to favor inaccurate localization over accurate source materials. I mean, I really don't understand. In my opinion, Wikipedia is supposed to be the English Wiki, and it's information on Megaten games is a mess. Really, most of it's information on Japanese games in general is a mess. There is constant debate because it is English but British and American are both English and many game titles change between US and PAL releases. I'm really not trying to be an ass, and I highly respect your work on this site, but I cannot understand your point of view, and I usually have it explained to me in the manner of "This is an English wiki so it should be this way", which still doesn't help me understand. Because in my opinion, we are not at all an English wiki, but rather a wiki written in English. Not a single item on any one of our pages was originally made in an English speaking country, or even made with English speakers in mind. Our wiki details more games that are not available in English than it details games that are.


 * And I'm sorry, because I know that is a massive rant, and yet another wall of text. But I honestly argue with you for the sake of accuracy and not because I'm trying to start shit. I really hope that did not come off confrontational (although I was a little angry at first because it seemed like you were saying "my way or GTFO") because I whole heartedly want to understand where you are coming from. SeventhEvening 03:56, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the quick response. For the first part: yes, we should be changing most of titles to the North American version - where it exists. That said - I did not propose Nocturne to be named Lucifer's Call - that's the PAL version. I did not propose "Aegis The First Mission" to "Aigis The First Mission" because it does not exist. All I'm saying is that we acknowledge that a North American title exists, accurate or no - and I emphasize North American since that's the prevalent English source. Since you've twisted my POV and thinks I'm antagonizing the source - I clarify that I do not. But to discredit the North American translation, which in your POV is inaccurate, is not what I think should be done.  BLUER   一番   04:18, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't mean to discredit the localization, and I do think that the North American title should be acknowledged. In fact, it is extremely important to let people know that the game is available in English. Even unofficially, such as with the Gemini patch, so that as many people as possible can enjoy the games. And honestly, the North American translation is extremely accurate and very, very well done. It is extremely respectful to the source. However, ATLUS's English titles are not accurate at all. Translation is 98% good. There was a hiccup in P3 and anything before Persona 2 was very inaccurate. And that isn't a POV issue there. Revelations was a terrible, terrible translation. I've played it. Other than that, Aigis doesn't make sense other than it is spelled more like it is pronounced. That is the only gripe I have about a whole 60+ hour game. In fact, it's really about the only translating gripe I have about ATLUS's entire library of games released after June of 2000. Out of soon to be NINE years of translation, the only gross inaccuracies I can name are Aigis, and a couple of demon names in Nocturne. Other than that, FANTASTIC TRANSLATION. That being said, out of every single Megami Tensei game that was released after 2004 by ATLUS USA, almost none of them contain accurate titles. They were renamed for marketing purposes. Just like Lucifer's Call. In addition, this naming has created a certain level of brand confusion. There are many people who believe that Raidou vs. King Abaddon is the 2nd devil summoner game, which is inaccurate. The number 2 should not have been included in the title. Additionally, I have met people unwilling to touch Shin Megami Tensei games because all of them are labeled as such and they think they need to play all of them to be able to understand the latest game. I understand, that from a marketing POV, ATLUS might be doing the right thing, but from an accuracy stand point, the titles are just ridiculous. They are also a mouthful, but that is another issue all together. I'm not attacking the translation, but I am attacking the titles. I also feel it is extremely hypocritical to ignore PAL releases just because it is convenient. Just because you or I happen to be American does not mean that there is not an equal number of other English speakers in other territories. Technically, the top contributor to this wiki is not from North America. I'm fine with siding with the English translation for things that are accurate, which, again, is at least 98%. But, for the sake of accuracy, some things should not be. Essentially, I would argue that would be titles, Aegis, and Chiaki Tachibana. In the case of those demons I mentioned being inaccurate, most of them are already referred to more often by the more accurate names in recent titles, and thus are referred to that way here. I'm not trying to grief or discredit the English localizations. I think the handful of things I've listed that that should not side with the English localization is fairly reasonable. I also think if a Japanese source conflicts with an English source, the Japanese source wins. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but the English is just a translation, while the Japanese is the original work. Jesus, I'm wordy. SeventhEvening 05:05, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Out of soon to be NINE years of translation, the only gross inaccuracies I can name are Aigis, and a couple of demon names in Nocturne.
 * I for one think its hypocritical to discredit the entire localization just because a few localization efforts went "grossly inaccurate". I still remember the decision to use JP just because mainly the early localization was not as appealing; so what? *shrugs* It's not like we can't explain to our readers why "KingAbaddon" had SMT and DS2 appended on the NA title, or why Chiaki had to change her family name. BTW Aegis making sense than Aigis is as much as her being a humanoid Anti-Shadow weapon - it doesn't have to make sense. But it makes sense more on why an English wiki like us is referring to the North American translation when it exists.

'' I also feel it is extremely hypocritical to ignore PAL releases just because it is convenient. ''
 * We're not ignoring the PAL translation because it's convenient - but honestly can anyone claim they've played the PAL versions more than the NA, notwithstanding the JP version? If that's hypocritical, I'd say ignoring inaccuracies in the North American version hypocritical, and even more hypocritical to use English words to translate our Japanese titles. I saw "Shibito Ekishi" article being created; its confusing when we use "tai" in that and "Vs." in the other two Raidou titles.

 I also think if a Japanese source conflicts with an English source, the Japanese source wins.
 * I must admit, I'm doing this because I'm being apologetic to Atlus USA. I'm not gonna claim they're inaccurate in titling nor are they more concerned on marketing, but they have to do this if they want to garner more fans so it is quite reasonable for them to do so. BTW, I had met with some of my Japanese friends who are avid gamers and they don't know what MegaTen is! *shrug*
 * I know it's just fiction and I should relax, but I think we need more input on this, and especially from our founder about the issue.  BLUER   一番   09:52, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Alright, first thing, as I said several times: I am not all discrediting any localization. Again, the localizations are pretty damn spot on. We can explain why Chiaki had to change her name, it's to to there being a character limit in the programing. In English, Tachibana takes up more characters than Hayasaki. The end. It is easy to see why they did that. I've explained about four or five times why the 2 and SMT were tacked onto the NA title. I can even explain why Nocturne was changed to Lucifer's Call. These are not huge mysteries, and I'm pretty sure Chiaki's page has a note about her name change in it. If Nocturne doesn't have a note about Lucifer's call it should. Honestly, Aigis is the only mystery to me. Aegis is a protective shield. That's what the word means. Specifically, in the Illiad, Pallas Athena's shield is referred to as an Aegis. Pallas Athena is Aegis's Persona. She is a robot that was specifically built to destroy shadows. She is a shell for Pallas Athena. Her shield if you will. Given how steeped in mythology SMT is, that's fairly obvious. I mean seriously, that makes sense right? I'm not talking crazy talk. But I don't see why the page's title needs to be the inaccurate one. Because then that inaccurate title will be used over and over and over in the wiki. I feel it would be better to use an accurate title and then point out the inaccuracies of the localization. Like with lucifer's call. And again, I love Atlus USA. I really do. They do some of the best localization work, and I frequently pre-order their games. I think they do a great job, there is nothing hypocritical about thinking they do great localization work, but that they make mistakes. ATLUS, and I'm talking about modern ATLUS, is a fantastic company. Revelations: Persona, a game they translated a decade ago, was bad. They a terrible job. This isn't being unfair to them, it's being honest. Seriously. Revelations: Persona is something I'm discrediting here. It is extremely bad. This is a fact, and if you don't believe me, read pretty much anything about the game anywhere. But since then, ATLUS has grown into a fantastic company that is very loyal to the source. I've said this about 12 times now. Where am I being hypocrytical and discounting entire localizations over minor things? The only entire localization is specifically Revelations: Persona in English. It was racist, buggy, half the game was cut out, badly edited, hardly made sense, seriously, it was bad. And because it was, we used information about the Japanese game. And it wasn't a problem. There are hundreds of examples of things that we've sided with the English version because there is no dispute. Teddie, all the tribe names, Maya and Tatsumi the handles, spellings of basically everything. So please do not accuse me of discrediting entire localizations, because I'm not.
 * We're not ignoring the PAL translation because it's convenient - but honestly can anyone claim they've played the PAL versions more than the NA, notwithstanding the JP version?
 * You are ignoring them out of convenience. Do we have page statistics of where our users are from? I know that in the left where it mentions how people reach out page, there are dozens of localized versions of Google that are not Google US. Can anyone claim they've played the PAL versions more? No. This is an debate between two people. While we do get traffic, you and me are the most vocal and hardest working members of the wiki. That doesn't mean that all the European users don't exist.
 * If that's hypocritical, I'd say ignoring inaccuracies in the North American version hypocritical, and even more hypocritical to use English words to translate our Japanese titles. I saw "Shibito Ekishi" article being created; its confusing when we use "tai" in that and "Vs." in the other two Raidou titles.
 * I know. When I was creating that page I noticed that and thought about that. But if we went with the super extended version of the title, we would not be making the "tai" against "vs." be any less confusing. But the words "Soulless Army" are actually more along the lines of "Super-powered corps" literally. I realize it is somewhat inconsistent, and hell, even a bit hypocritical, but I can't think of a better solution. I'd be fine with using the title "Raidou Kuzunoha vs. The Messenger of the Dead" for the sake of user clarity. We are not wikipedia and I don't see why we have to be super hard-nosed about something like that. In fact, you even supported such inconsistency: Talk:Teddie. During that I asked if we should go with Kuma because it would be more consistent and you said "we both know compromises to policies would pop up once in a while, and we don't need to be consistent to the point of distressing ourselves over minute changes." This is something I still agree with. Mostly the only reason that I was ever against translating Japanese titles is over things that can't be translated well, such as the words "Megami Tensei" or "Kagenuki", in which many, many translations exist with much debate attached to both.
 * BTW, I had met with some of my Japanese friends who are avid gamers and they don't know what MegaTen is! *shrug*
 * I'm sorry, but that has absolutely nothing to do with anything. I know avid gamers who have never played Final Fantasy before. So? I fail to see your point.If you were trying to say that the series lacks the brand recognition that I claim it does, I was in Japan when Persona 3 was released, and it was released to a lot of fanfare. In Akihabara, there were dozens of posters up for it and ads for it. None of them referred to it as a Megaten game, but rather as a long-awaited sequel to Persona 2. There were dozens of copies of the game in most game stores near the front of the store so you could pick one up. There were PS2 memory cards for sale that came with stickers featuring Persona 3. Regardless of whether or not anyone body who bought Persona 3 knew it was a Megaten game or not, there was a lot more fanfare. In the US, it was released pretty quietly, because ATLUS US doesn't have the money (or desire, I'm not sure) to create any fanfare. All of the promotion I saw for Persona 3 played up the Shin Megami Tensei title they slapped on it because not so many people played Persona 2 in the US. When ATLUS USA announced Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon, they announced it as a new Megaten game. In Japan, it was announced as the new Devil Summoner game (at least in the materials I read from Famitsu). The game market in Japan is very different than it is here, and ATLUS USA is trying to market a niche game the best that they can. I can't fault them for that. But I don't see any reason to kiss their ass over it either.
 * Real quick, final line: I don't mean to discredit their localizations. ATLUS USA does a great job. Please, don't misunderstand me.

SeventhEvening 16:49, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I just noticed this: I'm not gonna claim they're inaccurate in titling. It isn't a claim. Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner; Devil Summoner: Soul Hackers; Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. The Soulless Army; Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon. Count them. It is a fact. There are four titles. Number four is numbered as number 2. That is inaccuracy. It just is. I'm not just coming out of left field with crazy talk "claiming" this and that. SeventhEvening 16:56, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm gonna quote something left by the bcrat icy on the matter:
 * Good job! I don't get to as often as I'd like, but once in a while, I peruse some stuff over here. Your "manual of style" was of interest to me. The latest revision, in particular, I found myself whole-heartedly agreeing with. There are just too many snobby "purists" out there, aren't there? If this is an English wiki, the English must come first, with all due respect to the place of the series' origins (Japan). I am as intrigued by the Land of the Rising Sun as the next guy, but really, let's be serious. We have to remember that this wiki is not just "for people who already know about SMT", but for "people who don't". Otherwise, how could they use the search engine correctly (all redirects aside), if the character's name is the Japanese one? It kind of...oh, I don't know, defeats the purpose of this site.
 * And I know where he's getting at. You're not even sure how to name a Japanese title despite staunchly advocating "accuracy". Then a lot of this reasoning is based on what you suppose "is" - such as "ATLUS US doesn't have the money (or desire, I'm not sure)" and whatever reasoning you gave about Aigis (and I have to admit, if that's all to the exact words then you have to be an Atlus employee or something) - meaning a lot of this isn't just inaccurate, it's really written on what you think/believe is accurate.
 * I know Devil Summoner has 4 titles appended with it. Let me give you my supposition: I think they wanted to indicate that it's the second title in the Raidou Kuzunoha verse and name it Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha 2, but since its Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha vs "something", they couldn't figure where to append 2 so they just stuck it on Devil Summoner. That's plausible to me, but I'm not gonna write and claim that's accurate since I'm not sure myself. But point is I am not going to act like I know Atlus Japan better than Atlus USA and stick myself with the Japanese version, ignoring the English version, citing "inaccuracies" as is.

You mentioned we're not Wikipedia and we shouldn't be so hardnosed: then are we supposed to ignore what's delivered by the official localization? Just because we're not Wikipedia, we can't emulate whatever's good from them? And in turn we do what we think is correct because according to common sense (and not the localization despite being an English wiki) that's the most "accurate"?
 * Plus, you pointed out that you know people are put off by the English titling. You think us writing the Japanese titling is going to attract people to play them?
 * Look, I hate walls of texts. But this act of "referencing the Japanese source disregarding the localization where it exists" needs to go.  BLUER   一番   17:47, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The thing is, I do want to emulate what is good from them. Their strong desire to stick with the localization causes all kinds of strange problems. They have Lucifer's Call/Nocturne. They can't figure out the name of Personal Trainer: Cooking. And I agreed with Icy. Specifically I agreed most with is not just "for people who already know about SMT", but for "people who don't". Which is why it is so important that we not misrepresent the series. And I agree, we shouldn't reference the Japanese source disregarding the localization where it exists. We should disregard misrepresentation where it exist for the sake of informing people who don't know about SMT. I want them to have access to the most accurate information possible. Rather than creating another wall of text, I have to ask, What possible benefit is there for using "Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner 2: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon"? I literally cannot name a single reason to. I know it isn't for the sake of consistency, because both options are equally inconsistent. Additionally, what I said about Aegis isn't my opinion. That's logic. Seriously. I have never met a person who didn't realize that it should be Aegis because that's Pallas Athena's shield. I even tried very hard to rationalize that maybe it was AIgis and was a reference to artificial intelligence or the Japanese word for love. But it can't be done. SeventhEvening 18:10, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The reason is simple: because it just is. It is the English title, the title Atlus chose for their localization, which is made in American English, the version of English they initially chose to translate their Japanese works for people outside the Japanese market, which is mostly us.
 * And trying to put logic and rationalization to this series is futile and useless, imho. If you can't put into your head how AIgis might reference AI or love in Japanese, then don't, it's as futile as figuring out why Personae appear when you crush cards - stop making sense to everything, lol!  BLUER   一番   18:24, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The cards a crushed as a representation of destroying the "mask" the characters wear to hide their true selves. That makes perfect sense and is not futile at all. Megami Tensei works are extremely symbolic. Most aspects of the games are very carefully chosen and are very symbolic. The shooting in the head being a "killing" of inhibition. They are symbolic. The series is EXTREMELY logical and very rational. Out of all of Shin Megami Tensei III they were EXTREMELY careful to avoid making any of the different reasons appear evil and in fact, only use the word Evil once in the entirety of the game. So please, try again. SeventhEvening 18:54, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * First it's "purely accurate Japanese" and now "everything is symbolic"...
 * It's not that I don't get the whole symbolism thing. But I have pointed repeatedly above that the translation is what Atlus chose to localize its content. I can't get what they were trying to do and neither can you.  BLUER   一番   19:08, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * While it is true that this is an English wiki, I am going to have to side with Seven on this one. All the titles should be listed as accurately so that fans of the series know exactly how everything falls into place. I for one am relatively new to the series (I've only completed three titles thus far) and I would like to be able to see an accurate time line in order to properly piece together the over-arcing storyline. And from what I understand, Devil Summoner in not a part of the SHIN megami tensei series directly; only 1, 2, and Nocturne are. While they all take place on the same big time line, it is inaccurate (even if it is for the sake of marketing/pandering to U.S. audiences) to list it as either devil summoner 2 or a SHIN megami game.
 * Xyno512 14:48, 15 May 2009

While I'm still fairly new around here, after reading everyones argument I ask myself would it be so hard to make it so that when one looks for a PAL or US title they get redirected to the JP title? It seems to me that this argument is essentially nothing but splitting hairs. We're all smart people here, I'm sure we can figure this out.
 * Jtchort
 * If the titles should be listed as accurately then "Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon" isn't the most accurate - it's デビルサマナー 葛葉ライドウ 対 アバドン王. Unfortunately, Atlus didn't choose to write that for the North American localization. I repeat again that Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner 2: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon is the English title, the title Atlus chose for their localization, which is made in American English, the version of English they initially chose to translate their Japanese works for people outside the Japanese market, which is mostly us.  BLUER   一番   19:08, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * We frequently use Romanjinization, and could easily put "Devil Summoner: Kuzunoha Raidou tai Abaddon Ou" if you want to be so uptight about it if we go that way, but that's starting to be unfriendly towards the user, which is not what I am aiming for. I fully agree with Jtchort, since that's reasonable and what we've done for a long time. Xeno also seemed to side with that same sentiment. You had wanted other people's input, and some users have input their opinions. You are alone in suggesting we use "Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner 2: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon". I think the issue is more or less settled. SeventhEvening 18:03, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * This issue isn't actually splitting anyone hairs, far from it - and when that was the case, the NA titling chosen by Atlus is easily acceptable. But I can see that you guys are ruffled when I propose the change to the NA titling. This more or less reflects that you are selective / biased towards the Japanese version. That, to me, is not acceptable, especially when coming off as an English wiki. I, and I'm sure icy, had this in mind when he suggested creating a Megami Tensei wiki, using English and NA versions where applicable. And I'm still advocating that.  BLUER   一番   18:18, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Didn't you say there was no way I could have known what ATLUS intended? How could you know what Icy intended? When I created all the Megami Ibunroku Persona pages, I started using the English Localization, and then talked to Icy about localization. Icy wasn't really uptight about it having to be one way or the other, as long as we weren't hard-core purists and were making the wiki user friendly to help new comers to the series, something I feel we are doing with the redirection and the explanations. I feel we are still using North American localizations where applicable, with the only exception being where it betrays it's source. And why ATLUS USA's titles are acceptable. inaccuracy aside, they are confusing towards newcomers of the series and using them heavily causes the wiki to be less user friendly towards those who are not already very familiar with the series. Already I'm starting to see problems with Devil Survivor being lumped in with Shin Megami Tensei (Series), when it is not a member of that series at all. To me, this confusion and user-unfriendliness is unacceptable. SeventhEvening 18:47, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Note that it's either "デビルサマナー 葛葉ライドウ 対 アバドン王" or "Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner 2: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon" - other renditions are not the official title - that includes "Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon". You only serve to confuse if you start naming things just because you think it doesn't click with the rest of the series.
 * And the issue with the whole Aigis and things not clicking with the rest of the symbolism and myths, well, guess what, that's your problem. If you feel you can't connect these together - then it's your own personal problem. It's not Atlus Japan' fault, not Atlus USA's fault, its your own personal distaste. That shouldn't be reflected in a wiki that serves to inform - the wiki isn't yours and it's not dictated by your piques. It's dictated by the source - which includes Atlus USA.
 * And I believe my Style proposal is as neutral as it gets. The only persons who can't accept it are the ones who are to uptight to accept that Atlus USA and its faults exists.  BLUER   一番   19:08, 18 May 2009 (UTC)