Talk:Protagonist (Persona 5)

Protagonist (Persona 5)
What is his hair color is it black other people said it's brown. It seems the hair color is black for Protagonist (Persona 5) similar to Vincent Brooks --Cococrash11 (talk) 20:38, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

Voice Actor
Considering it was Jun Fukuyama who showed up and acted as the phantom during Night of the Phantom, would it be safe to add him as the protagonist Japanese voice actor?--JupiterKnight (talk) 03:00, February 6, 2015 (UTC)
 * No, let's not assume anything. There's no harm in waiting until more information is available. Alex IDV (talk) 05:57, February 6, 2015 (UTC)


 * Wait, where was it confirmed that's who voiced him during NotP? I've been seening this get thrown around a lot, and I'm just really curious. 65.51.214.148 06:44, February 12, 2015 (UTC)


 * Not literally, actually. However, his voice in the event is extremely similar to Lelouch Lamperouge in Code Geass who is voiced by Jun Fukuyama. Even so, it is not confirmed that he will be the Japanese voice actor for the protagonist.
 * Mr. Empty (talk) 07:57, February 12, 2015 (UTC)

Height
His wiki page states he's 5'9". Are there any sources on that? i haven't seen anything? while there's room for artistic liscence, the poster showing his Persona implies that he's 5'5" if you follow the height lines?
 * Then you may want to check your measurements. There's been one image referenced on here with the height chart extended. I've measured using a compass and pixel-by-pixel according to that chart in the original image and the top of his hair is barely breaking the 5'9" mark. Great Mara (talk) 15:20, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

Question
I see that the wiki lists him as representing the Fool arcana. I'm just wondering: is there a source confirming this? If not then should it be removed until there is confirmation? Simply as a means to avoid potentially false information. 99.138.149.253 19:41, February 11, 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, his Arcana is confirmed. At the part of the trailer where the characters visit the armor shop, the status screen says: "Protagonist - The Fool". G.A.S.A (talk) 19:49, February 11, 2015 (UTC)


 * Dam'n... I was hoping they'd change things up and make him the Devil Arcana... Considering Arsene is a thief, it'd make sense to me.Smashman0 (talk) 19:44, February 21, 2015 (UTC)

Joker (Persona 5)
Is there any relevant trivia information about Joker (Persona 5) for Protagonist (Persona 5). Since there were 2 person who use the name Joker for bad while he's the first person that use the name Joker for good. --Cococrash11 (talk) 06:09, May 7, 2016 (UTC)
 * Atlus JP seems to advocate that the Heist is there to "punish the evildoing adults" which to me sounds intentionally barefaced/shameless. I feel that their cause may turn out horribly wrong (possible plot twist) as hinted in the 4th trailer which is similar to the Joker in Innocent Sin, so it's best for us to avoid defining the morality/ethics of their actions. -- Inpursuit (talk) 06:18, May 7, 2016 (UTC)

The Phantom
It seems the Japanese Persona 5 Website at May 5, 2016 The Phantom refers to Protagonist (Persona 5) while The Phantoms refer to the Phantom Thieves of Hearts in Persona 5. --Cococrash11 (talk) 22:30, April 11, 2017 (UTC)

Akira Kurusu's Lines
Why did you put quotes from Lavenza instead of actual lines spoken by Akira? Since Akira speaks lines, it would have been good to post actual lines spoken by him on the Wiki page instead of relying on references by other characters.

37.119.189.100 18:51, June 10, 2017 (UTC)Vittorio Pugliese


 * I agree. We should have the quotes from the actual protagonists, not other characters about the protagonist's situation, as their opening quote. People are used to the opening quote being spoken by the actual character. Same goes for P3 protagonist. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  19:40, June 10, 2017 (UTC)

I don't agree at all Protagonist (Persona 3) and Protagonist (Persona 5) had an actual line in the personality sections it's more than acceptable. They are Silent Protagonist the whole point of other characters quoting it is precisely because they are Silent. Doing that in the Opening defeats the whole purpose. We know they talk in the personality sections and Protagonist (Persona 5) even talks with Arsene in the Persona 5 The Animation The Day Breakers sections. --Cococrash11 (talk) 05:27, June 11, 2017 (UTC)


 * Just because they don't have a lot of vocal lines, it means we must choose a quote from another one about them? That's flimsy logic. And they still have lines in text and dialog options, say things in battle, and P5 protagonist speaks in cutscenes. And they both speak a lot in the manga/anime/movie/spin-offs. Also, I still think it's confusing to have a quote from another character in the opening section, since many will read their opening quote as the protagonist, only to realize it's from Lavenza. Also, just because a quote by someone else is chosen, it does not communicate that they are silent protagonists. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  14:10, June 11, 2017 (UTC)

If it's with talking characters that doesn't make sense. But with Silent Protagonist it's fine it's not just Protagonist (Persona 3) and Protagonist (Persona 5) other Silent Protagonists are like that. --Cococrash11 (talk) 19:00, June 11, 2017 (UTC)


 * Your argument is poor. The protagonists of P3 and P5 do talk sometimes, and "silent protagonist" is a bit subjective. It still doesn't mean their opening quote needs to be from someone else entirely (since it makes it more confusing), and having their opening quote from another does not necessarily convey the idea that they are silent protagonists. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  19:20, June 11, 2017 (UTC)


 * The Boy with Earring, Minato Arisato and Yu Narukami never spoke in their main games, but Akira Kurusu does, so I think we should post his actual lines instead of references from Lavenza. I agree with AlexShepard.
 * Also TVTropes doesn't count Akira Kurusu, Sorey from Tales of Zestiria (but Ludger counts), Snake from MGSV and Maximillian from Dark Cloud 2 (But Toan counts) as Heroic Mimes (If you look on the Persona 5 page on TVTropes you won't find "Heroic Mime", while you will find that trope in P4 and P3)
 * 37.119.189.100 11:56, June 12, 2017 (UTC)Vittorio Pugliese

Yosuke, Naoto, Makoto, and other characters act as the Protagonists mouth so they move the plot forward it's like that. Besides the Opening quotes fit them more perfectly then any quotes spoken by them vocally. Their vocal quotes are limited compared to other talking characters and numerous good choices. Flynn's Opening Quote is similar even though he doesn't talk in the Main game but in the sequel he does there's no need to keep making Protagonist (Persona 5)'s Opening Quote vocal. You do know he doesn't have many vocal quotes that's because he's a Silent Protagonist. We know he talks in Persona 5 that's why it's mention in the personality sections. His vocal quotes fits at the personality section not at the opening.

Soery, and Maximilian isn't a Silent Protagonist while Ludger and Toan are. Solid Snake used to be a Silent Protagonist while Punished "Venom" Snake is just The Quiet One. Also Protagonist (Persona 5) is a Heroic Mime in TVTropes I check it everyday. It's because of people like you that people almost assumed he isn't a Silent Protagonist and that's why it's necessary for people to be reminded that Protagonist (Persona 5) is one. --Cococrash11 (talk) 17:49, June 12, 2017 (UTC)


 * So? You still haven't answered my points: "It still doesn't mean their opening quote needs to be from someone else entirely (since it makes it more confusing), and having their opening quote from another does not necessarily convey the idea that they are silent protagonists." We should move the Lavenza quote to the opening of P5 since it's more relevant there. Right now there's 3 in support of having the opening quote be from the actual protagonist, and 1 against. The Lavenza quote is also waaay too lengthy. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  17:57, June 12, 2017 (UTC)

What 3 it's only you 2 get your facts right. Flynn, Nanashi (Shin Megami Tensei IV Apocalypse), Protagonist (Persona 3) and other Silent Protagonists' Opening quotes have someone's else quotes and it's not confusing you're the only one who find it confusing you shouldn't assume other people will find it confusing. The quotes that you are suggesting is too short and you of all people want short information aren't you they guy who wrote lengthy information but with quotes it's different. --Cococrash11 (talk) 18:19, June 12, 2017 (UTC)


 * I meant 3 people in support of my stance (me and two IP editors), not 3 characters. If there's other characters with opening quotes from another, I don't care since I'm only into Persona. And the majority of people are going to read that quote and think it's the protagonist saying it at first, which is why it's confusing and we don't want that. I also work with a case-by-case basis and have different standards for opening quotes. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  22:13, June 12, 2017 (UTC)

I only see 2 you and the guy who first wrote Akira Kurusu's Lines. No they won't, they will understand with other Silent Protagonists the basis and standards that work well with other series then your basis and standards there's is no need to make the Persona (Series) the only one different. --Cococrash11 (talk) 22:20, June 12, 2017 (UTC)


 * "We will take this country!" isn't much of a quote nor does it have any grand significance either in contrast to what Lavenza says. However... I do agree with Alex in that if the protagonist does say something that should be the quote... but only if it has a good amount of words and actually has some weight in it. The same way that P3MC's quote shouldn't just be "That's how people are." since it doesn't have a lot of context into it to outright none. Which is why Yu does have a quote because he had a lengthy sentence (but it shouldn't be from the anime, imo).


 * "If there's other characters with opening quotes from another, I don't care since I'm only into Persona."
 * I see... and besides, people won't be confused because at the base of the quote it says who said the quote. Crok425 (talk) 23:04, June 12, 2017 (UTC)

It's not a big deal if only the Persona protagonists have a quote by them. Also, Akira's "We will take this country!" quote is epic as hell (imo) and it shows his determination and strong-will. Still, we have 4 people agreeing that the quote should be from the protagonist. Again, we can move the Lavenza quote down to the P5 section. It's a win-win. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  23:08, June 12, 2017 (UTC)

Right now you're the one who isn't answering my question who is the 2nd person ip. Besides "Yes. Before that happens, we will take this country!" fits his personality perfectly that's enough to show that his personality is "epic" not as a opening. You don't care since you're only into Persona that sounds very biased. --Cococrash11 (talk) 01:23, June 13, 2017 (UTC)

The reason Protagonist (Persona 4) doesn't have a vocal quote in Persona 4 is precisely because he is a Silent Protagonist. The only quote there is from an anime. The only epic vocal quotes from Protagonist (Persona 5) is "Yes. Before that happens, we will take this country!" and "See ya!" and the others are only game play. Those words don't need to be in the Opening. Instead of changing the opening how about writing a new quotes under the Heists sections there are lots of them. --Cococrash11 (talk) 01:44, June 13, 2017 (UTC)


 * Epic as hell isn't an arguement. As I said I don't think that one should be the quote on his page because it's short and without context to really back it up. Yes I agreed that the quote should be from the protagonist but only if it's a long sentence and actually has some words instead of a few that don't mean much without context, so no in this case that quote shouldn't be used. However, a quote should be about how the protagonist is in general instead of just "strong-willed" since "strong-willed" is depicted in all of the protagonists. Crok425 (talk) 05:57, June 13, 2017 (UTC)

The quote that is long and with context from Protagonist (Persona 5) isn't possible because he's a Silent Protagonist and that method can only applied to talking characters. Lavenza's quote is about Protagonist (Persona 5) stating he is a Slave of Fate, basically implied that he is fated to save the world, described the importance of memories of his bond which is very important and relevant to the Persona (Series) that's why it described who he is perfectly. --Cococrash11 (talk) 06:08, June 13, 2017 (UTC)

My bad, I didn't notice those were the same IP. Anyway, I disagree with Crok's belief that a quote being epic isn't a valid point or argument, I think it's a totally valid point which Crok so easily dismisses. And I think the protagonist being strong-willed and rebellious is a far more defining aspect than the rest (P3/P4 protagonist aren't that strong-willed and are victims of unfortunate circumstances). And I don't see an issue with an opening quote being short and succinct. I wouldn't know what other quotes to chose for other non-Persona protags since I'm unfamiliar with them, so of course I'm biased (I'm not going to waste my time with unfamiliar material). Again, there's no good point why the Lavenza quote can't just be moved to the P5 section. Having a lengthy quote from another character at the top is a bad idea since people are going to initially read the line as the protagonist's voice. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  07:03, June 13, 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Crok425 it makes sense than your biased reasoning. I already explain the reason and you seem to keep ignoring it. You keep insisting that people will be confused and thought it's Protagonist (Persona 5)'s voice. Sounds to me you don't read carefully and don't think things through kind of like with Persona 5 Ages. I on the other actually read what's going on and I might not always show it but I always think carefully about what I do. --Cococrash11 (talk) 07:24, June 13, 2017 (UTC)


 * WTF is your counter-point? That people will eventually see the "Lavenza" at the bottom, and it's all okay? That's still a bad counter-point since people reading the article for the first time will still read the first parts in the protagonist's voice. And what do you mean I didn't "think things through" with the Persona 5 ages? You seemed to be the one having a severe brainfart when I explained my reasoning why I think 16-17 is fine for the Protagonist/Ann/Ryuji, and not for certain other characters like Akechi, Makoto and Haru where it's more ambiguous. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  07:35, June 13, 2017 (UTC)

You're being rude to both me and the readers you don't think they will read the context and make an educated guess. You're the one with the so called "severe brainfart" when you wrote possibly 15, 16, 17, and 18 when "they" even stated that's not how we do things and even I understand that before and after you implemented it. I proposed to do it 16-17 like with Persona 3 and Persona 4 but you wouldn't go for and stating it's all speculative so "they" suggest to do it just 16 and went back to the original arrangement. I was able to write dozen of Persona 5 characters quote when you're fixated on just Protagonist (Persona 5)'s Quotes. You keep thinking there are 2 ips then eventually you finally noticed it's actually just 1 ip this show you didn't actually read things carefully. --Cococrash11 (talk) 07:59, June 13, 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm trying to be considerate. Not everyone picks up on context. So what if I listed uncertain age ranges? I listed them because many characters age and I feel it's good to mention that possibility while keeping the certainties and uncertainties specified. Once "they" said not to do it like that on the wiki, I stopped, so I didn't have a "brainfart" or anything. If I somehow kept editing a little, then I simply didn't see "their" message that fast. I'm fixated on the P3/P5's opening quotes because I don't like the idea of their opening quote being from someone else. So what? And it's not like I remember the numbers of IPs, so whatever. God forbid I make an honest mistake from time to time like a real human being, eh? If you're going to blast me for that, I could blast you for all the grammar and punctuation mistakes YOU make. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  08:22, June 13, 2017 (UTC)

You're not being considerate now. It's not just with ages I noticed you argue a lot of it which get you in trouble 3 times 2 times from last summer and 1 from just last month. I remember it's something to do with Naoto being transgender, and Kanji being homosexual but the recent one I didn't look into it. Right now it feels like intimidating behavior. Yes I have problems with it that's why I stop doing it and instead do minor things, you add lots of information that makes sense and frankly to me the way you do things with quotes is how you view me with the things you mentioned. I have a dozens of counter points but honestly you don't think I have one I guess I'm not just good with explaining things. --Cococrash11 (talk) 08:49, June 13, 2017 (UTC)


 * So what am I supposed to do in order to be "considerate"? Simply shut up, walk out of this debate, and let you have your way? Should I let people have their way every once in a while, even if I disagree with them? Is that the only way I can be "considerate"? And why are you making this ad hominem now? Why can't you just focus on the actual debate? God forbid someone enters wiki debates a lot. You need good points, counter-points and an ability to properly convey yourself in a debate. You're not really doing well at that, as you admit. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ — Alex Shepherd   ツ  09:01, June 13, 2017 (UTC)


 * I've checked the TvTropes page of Persona 5 and Characters/Persona 5 and I haven't found the Heroic Mime trope (I found it in P3 and P4), while in the Heroic Mime page it's said specifically that it's downplayed even more in P5 as Akira has some lines, however he still doesn't voice his dialogue trees. In P6, however, I want to remove those (pointless) dialogue trees entirely (except during Social Links) and make a protagonist with a canon name, a fleshed-out personality and a backstory (all Persona protagonists are silent and have no personality, but I want P6 to break the tradition like they did with Aigis, however not just break the tradition for a special scenario, but for an entire game as a protagonist with personality can have an actual character arc like the rest of the cast and may improve the story by a lot). This coems from the man who wants Link to talk. Who agrees with me?
 * 37.119.189.100 08:54, June 13, 2017 (UTC)Vittorio pugliese (The Man Who Wants Link and the P6 Protagonist To Talk) 10.53, June 13, 2017 (UTC)

That will never happen because Atlus is adamant with their silent protags tradition. Besides, your message is forum worthy, not here.

Anyway, putting aside your bickering and into the discussion at hand. Just as "epic as hell" isn't an arguement... your bias isn't an arguement either. The quote of "We'll take over this country." just shows his rebellious side which just scratches the surface of his character just like the P3 MC quote of "That's how people are." both are short, without context and doesn't say much or outright anything about them. Lavenza's quote fits the protagonist perfectly since it tells about what his journey will be like and what he needs to do to succeed just like the quote found in the P3 MC page, it says more about the story of the game and what the protagonist is than "Let's take this country."

As for debate... I know you said that polite accusations or insults are part of a debate which I disagree completely. "Brain fart" isn't polite at all, not even in a debate where no one tries to insult you. Just my two cents. Crok425 (talk) 17:49, June 13, 2017 (UTC)

Ad hominem you sure know a lot words. I'm not using what ever that is called (Already check the meaning). You're the one who used Ad Hominem I'm just saying it sounds to me to you don't read things carefully and didn't think things through and then get angrily defensive by saying that rude word. You do understand the word criticism right. I didn't intend it to sound that harsh but you're causing me a lot of stress and your rude word isn't helping with it. You criticize that I make mistakes but that sounds hypocritical and you seem to forget you make just as many mistake when you have the nerve to use that word. You should really be careful by reading things and thinking things carefully or else you'll get in trouble by arguing again and it's not without baseless reasoning it's from last year but also last month which is pretty recent, and right now.

The ip is either lying or they had no idea how to look for things. Again it's in Persona 5 Characters Founding Thieves under The Protagonist and around the letter H.

"Bias isn't an argument either" Well at that time that's how it feel, then it get complicated and I'm not sure what we're talking about anymore, and the conversation itself is very confusing. That's what I've been trying to say about Lavenza's quote but now you make it more sense. --Cococrash11 (talk) 18:24, June 13, 2017 (UTC)

To Crok:


 * Me thinking the "country" quote is "epic" is still an argument. Just because it's a subjective opinion/argument, it doesn't necessarily mean it's not an argument. The country quote is short, succinct, and entices the reader into wanting to learn more. The opening quote isn't supposed to be huge and lengthy and about his situation - that's what the Profile section is for, which the Lavenza quote can be moved to. I think both the "country" quote and "that's how people are" say a lot about their character while being succinct and enticing. Agree to disagree. And what do you even mean "my bias isn't an argument"? If you mean my opinion that the "country" quote is better, then your opinion that the Lavenza quote is better isn't an argument since it's also subjective. It goes both ways.
 * I said "Cococrash had brainfart" after they insinuated that I "don't read carefully and think through things and don't actually read what's going on". Call it counter-roasting - Cococrash was rude to me first. Besides, you're the one to talk - you called me a jackass before.

To Cococrash:


 * Yes, you used ad hominem when you decided to say I don't read/think through things carefully, so I used ad hominem back. You think you can just say things like that, and expect someone not to get offended and retort? Boohoo, so I said you had a brainfart before. You can mask what you said as "criticism", but that's exactly my proof that you used ad hominem first, since you criticized my character first out of nowhere.

Anyway, if two people think the Lavenza quote is better, then I can't really do anything. I still think it's dumb to have the Lavenza quote as the opening quote. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  19:27, June 13, 2017 (UTC)

Me being rude. All I said is "It sounds to me like" it's just an observation and judging from Talk:Persona 5, etc your argument just keep escalating. Everyone had feelings, you feel my observation as rude, I feel that word is rude, and Crok425 feels pissed at that time in Talk:Persona 5. You do know there is such a thing called constructive criticism but apparently you don't take it that way. We both said some harsh things let's just move on from it alright. --Cococrash11 (talk) 19:51, June 13, 2017 (UTC)


 * If I said "It sounds to me like you're an obnoxious asshole", does it really make it better? It's like putting sprinkles on a turd. You can call it "constructive criticism" all you want, it's still ad hominem. Since it is futile dealing with you two and impossible to get my way, I might as well leave. All I did was want to support IP's feelings that the Lavenza quote is a bad choice. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  19:57, June 13, 2017 (UTC)

The Fool
But is he really the Fool? Nowhere in the game does it state he is the fool arcana, just that he has the wild card ability. Igor is the fool arcana in P5. 76.73.234.34 07:16, June 24, 2017 (UTC)


 * Having his initial Persona as the Fool already says he is of the Fool arcana. Igor is just a confidant. Yu was also never mentioned to be the Fool in the game IIRC. Crok425 (talk) 10:17, June 24, 2017 (UTC)

P5 Arena: will Akira speak or will Futaba act as his voice?
P4 Arena's inventor said that he wants to make P5 Arena. In P4 Arena the protagonist's name was confirmed as Yu and he talked, while Rise, who is a navigator and thus a non-combatant, became playable instead of just acting as Yu's voice. Meanwhile, in Hyrule Warriors Link never spoke and a fairy named Proxi acted as his voice during the story. In your opinion, will Akira be voiced like Yu from P4 Arena or will Futaba act as his voice like Proxi from Hyrule Warriors? I don't know, but I think Akira will speak because, just by the looks of it, I think Futaba is more combat-oriented than RIse, thus she will be playable as a separate character from Akira and Akira will be voiced during story sequences. What do you think?

95.239.11.59 18:53, July 8, 2017 (UTC)Vittorio Pugliese


 * What does Hyrule Warriors, a game by a different company in a different franchise on a different console, have to do with Persona? And again, this is a question for the forum, not the talk page. DirtyBlue929 (talk) 20:10, July 8, 2017 (UTC)

Exposing Shidou and other lines from Akira
When exposing Shidou, Akira seems to have said "Yes, before that happens, we will take this country!". Was it really him or just Futaba or Yusuke using a voice modifier? Also, if he really has lines, in which cutscenes can I find them?

Joker's Glasses
So this has become a rather significant talking point, but it's a discussion that needs to happen. In short, I seem to have gotten into a disagreement regarding Joker's glasses. They're purely aesthetic and the game makes it abundantly clear that's the case. And yet his wiki pages writes it in a way that makes it seem ambiguous, which isn't the case, which is a blatant case of editorializing.

Here's every argument that makes it abundantly clear they're aesthetic.

1) They're an accessory for Joker. Emphasis on accessory. The game describes them as "Hip Glasses" and in the Japanese version, they're described as "Fashion Glasses."

2) Joker does not wear them in his flashback with Shido. It's impossible to assume his vision got worse over time because...

3) He does not wear them in the ending. In what is possibly one of the most subtle aspects of the narrative, Joker gets rid of his glasses because he does not need them anymore. He does not need to wear them and pretend to be a good student because his name is finally cleared. Insisting that there's a possibility he needs to wear them is blatantly, willfully ignoring the ending.

4) He doesn't wear them in the Metaverse. Obvious. His hand eye coordination is notably amazing as well.

5) When Joker tells his friends he doesn't have a Yukata for the upcoming festival, they suggest he do something special for the occasion. Ryuji suggests he take off his glasses, which isn't something a person would suggest to someone who actually needs them for vision.

6) The game at not point even remotely hints at vision problems for the protagonist.

We shouldn't editorialize important aspects of a character because frankly, it looks incredibly amateurish.

Ziodyne (talk) 20:06, August 9, 2017 (UTC)Ziodyne


 * I could say the opposite of you. Nowhere does the game claim it's purely aesthetic and have no vision correcting purposes, and you are borderline claiming your interpretation is fact, claiming it's "not up for debate" (which is an easy way to be pretentious and silence people).


 * 1) Just because they're an accessory, it doesn't mean anything. Ryuji's accessory is suspenders. That's like trying to say his suspenders don't actually have any functional purpose either. Just because glasses are "hip" and "fashionable", it doesn't mean they're not for vision correction.


 * 2) Sometimes, people like to take off their glasses, especially if they're going on a short walk or trip, like a short stroll around the city at night. There are people who can see decently without glasses, and the glasses only serve as a minor boost for them. I'm similar. The severity of vision blur is different for everyone. Your claim that "everyone who wears glasses for vision correction can't see properly without them" is wrong. I can see fine without mine, just not *perfectly* -- we aren't all like Velma from Scooby Doo who LITERALLY can't see anything.


 * 3) See above. Also, it could be for symbolic purposes, in the same way Yu removes his glasses in the TV world at the end of P4. It doesn't mean they weren't a necessity during the course of P4, as they had fog-lifting abilities.


 * 4) See point 2. Also, Joker doesn't get to decide his Metaverse outfit. In addition, wearing glasses in both daily life and in the Metaverse is idiotic, as it identifies him (it's why they use codenames). It's not possible to wear his mask and his glasses at the same time either.


 * 5) See point 2.


 * 6) And nowhere does it prove, without a doubt, for a fact, that they're purely aesthetic and have no vision-correcting purposes.

Stop assuming everyone with glasses are Velmas from Scooby Doo. We shouldn't post interpretation as fact, and ignore the other possibilities, because frankly, it looks incredibly amateurish. Of course, the possibility that they're purely aesthetic is possible, but without absolute definite proof, we can't have bias in the wiki. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  04:12, August 10, 2017 (UTC)


 * 1) No, the burden of proof is on you. The game does not claim it's purely aesthetic because it does not need to. It is conveyed, through theming and text that they are fake glasses, rather than explicitly stated. It's only up for debate if you willfully ignore that. His glasses are an accessory because they are disposal, much like every other accessory in the series (despite having functional use, like Futaba's headphones). An accessory by definition, is something that can be added to something else in order to make it more useful, versatile, or attractive. '''If Joker's glasses were prescription, he would not be able to remove them.

'''


 * 2) Sure, I'm the same way when it comes to my own glasses. And yet there's still a distinct way in how your bodies process vision when your glasses are off. This is a problem, because we see Joker operate without his glasses without ANY problems on multiple occasions. He does not wear them in the metaverse. Or at night during his incident with Shido, or on his way back home during the ending.


 * 3) Of course it's for symbolic purposes, that's the entire point. Joker removes his glasses because he does not need to hide anymore... If he needed them for vision correction, if his glasses weren't just a means of hiding, he would not do that. Why is this so difficult to grasp.


 * 4) Way to entirely miss my point. The fact that he doesn't wear glasses in the metaverse, and yet can see and aim without issue should prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he does not need them to see. It doesn't matter if he gets to decide his metaverse outfit, his vision literally does not change. Unless you'd be willing to argue that his vision somehow gets better in the metaverse, but that is untenable. It's speculation to the ridiculous degree.


 * 5) See point 2.


 * 6) See point 1. The game doesn't need to prove this beyond a shadow of the doubt. You need to prove that there was intent to portray him as someone who needs glasses.


 * Seriously, don't you have a shred of pride as an editor? You're being extremely transparent right now, willfully ignoring blatant theming in order to characterize Joker as someone who may need glasses for likely selfish reasons. It's borderline juvenile, especially since the Japanese wiki does not do this. We have a duty to convey the most accurate information, so it reflects poorly on us when you blatantly editorialize like that. You're claiming you're editing without bias, but using a dishonest argument in order to justify.


 * Regardless, what's currently written is blatantly worse than before. Way to take personality away from the description.

Ziodyne (talk) 13:09, August 10, 2017 (UTC)Ziodyne