User talk:AlexShepherd

Thank you
Thank you for your pictures. We've categorized them to the right game category. Do categorize them if you're uploading more.  BLUER   一番   19:21, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

Re:Persona 5 Protagonist deletion
The article is not deleted per se, it is just redirected to the main game article. There's too little information to create an article for this character since we don't even have his name or details ie whether he is the protagonist. Having the article there is encouraging speculation which we're trying to avoid. As soon as more details are available this protection will be removed. The other three articles cited for comparison maybe short but this is due to lack of info ie stats, plot, profile etc even though the related media has been out for a good while.  BLUER   一番   20:21, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

On Images
Thanks for the images you uploaded. Please remember to categorize the image with relevant categories if there isn't one on the image page.  BLUER   一番   20:05, November 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * I count Spriters Resource as one wonderful database of SMT sprites. But it's tricky to get transparent images of official character artworks unless you have an image software which I currently lack. You're free to replace images with better quality ones and tag the old image for deletion.  BLUER   一番   21:15, November 30, 2014 (UTC)

Re:Red background
The problem is that Wikia has overrode the theme designed for our Wikia skin. They like to run ads and promotions at times but I'm not sure if they're running any on this wiki now. I've left a message to let them know about the issue. Thanks!  BLUER   一番   05:02, December 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * The issue is solved - apparently it was just incomplete coding on my part. It should be running correctly now.  BLUER   一番   05:41, December 7, 2014 (UTC)

Speculation
This is a wiki. It should go without saying that speculation is out. Great Mara (talk) 02:18, December 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * There's also nothing to indicate that the heart design isn't just something shared with Konohana Sakuya (as with the other Shadows sharing parts of the resulting personas) and that the feathers aren't just a design feature for the battle area. Overreaching for symbolism where there is none looks more like spouting bullshit than anything. And across most wikis, it does not matter if the speculation is indicated as such beforehand or not, it's removed. And frankly we're a lot more lax about the symbolism sections than we should be already. Great Mara (talk) 02:30, December 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * If it were obvious, everyone would immediately be on the same page when seeing it. Which isn't the case. Great Mara (talk) 03:00, December 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * And 'very likely' leads right back into the speculation again. Which I am not getting into a circular argument over yet again. Great Mara (talk) 03:08, December 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well you're about to since it seems to be necessary to absolutely put everything in writing, including general wikia practices apparently. In the meantime, I've grown more than a little tired of this conversation. Great Mara (talk) 03:18, December 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * And who said I wasn't putting drafts past Bluer, Other and Zahl? And for the final time now. Good night. Great Mara (talk) 03:25, December 20, 2014 (UTC)

Request on transparent on P4D's portrait
Hi Alexshepherd I was wondering if you can transparent some of the P4D I unload to this wiki. I know I was supose to transparent, but I can't I don't have Photoshop anymore until I get it back in September when I started in my classes that accquires Adobe. Since you're very good at it, but if you refuse then that's fine I can wait until September. AzureJay (talk) 9:26. July 17, 2015 (UTC)

Reception
Hiya. Because we don't aim to repeat Wikipedia, we don't include a Reception section to articles, but I named the section "Reception" for lack of better word. Technically it is reception as it was Atlus asking their fans which character they like most. I added the information on the character poll as it was a poll run by Atlus, not by any third party. I also mentioned that it was part of Atlus' program and added references to the statement. As this information is already covered in another article, and since we don't want to repeat Wikipedia, I will remove these sections from the article.  BLUER   一番   16:40, July 29, 2015 (UTC)
 * You don't seem to get my point. The question isn't "why is it bad to repeat Wikipedia", the question is "why repeat Wikipedia at all?". When we started the wiki, we aim to cover information that is not given in detail by Wikipedia, while at the same time making sure our information is from official sources that can be verified and not fall into fansite territory. Admittedly, that I wrote the section as Reception isn't part of our Manual of Style for articles, so I aim to fix that.  BLUER   一番   04:02, July 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * Except in Wikipedia, Reception section or any section for that matter requires verifiable citation/references - which your edit on the article lacked. I know this because I have edited in Wikipedia extensively before I moved on to a Wikia wiki. It only seemed odd not to when everyone is parroting formats of other Wikias, and I rather we keep to our own Manual of Style.  BLUER   一番   04:56, July 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * We could, but Wikipedia has that covered, even cited them properly. I'll contend that we are technically a fansite, only because coverage such as enemy stats aren't allowed in Wikipedia. Commentary about Chie's voice actress can be found in public forums for sure, but as it stands it remains public opinion in these many sites.  BLUER   一番   05:06, July 30, 2015 (UTC)

Caps
Don't use all caps in edit summaries. It's annoying. Great Mara (talk) 08:12, September 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't care, it's a phrase that people NEED to stop using. It's an extremely offensive and disrespectful phrase that needs to be removed from the English language. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  08:15, September 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * I do care. It's disruptive and unneccessary. Furthermore, this is a video game wiki, not an SJW media platform. Keep in on Tumblr. Great Mara (talk) 08:20, September 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * It DOES matter, because language is contagious. And it's not just a "social justice" issue, it's something that should be used by EVERY site that uses professional modern English. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  08:23, September 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * And it still doesn't necessitate blasting capslock in the edit summaries. And looking through MW, the only angle I'm seeing on this is that the 'commit' verb carries a negative or criminalized connotation when takig an action. Great Mara (talk) 08:27, September 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * Fine, I won't use caps lock since it offends you that much. And I have no idea what "MW" is. I also think we should remove the "mature (17+)" to just "mature" because using some arbitrary age number to define maturity is stupid. I don't see why 17 is used, and not 16 or 18. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  08:34, September 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * MW is short for Merriam Webster. And I'm not sure but I think the 17+ was taken from the ESRB ratings. I don't know the European rating system. Great Mara (talk) 08:44, September 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * This is an worldwide wiki, so I don't see why we should adhere solely to the ESRB. Do you mind if we remove it on the front page? — Alex Shepherd   ツ  08:47, September 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't myself. But I'm not sure about the others. Great Mara (talk) 08:50, September 20, 2015 (UTC)

I mind. We go by the average ratings the game series are given. Generally ESRB gives them (M)ature which is 17+, CERO is more lenient with some games given either B which is 12+, and C which is 15+ while PEGI generally rates them 16+. "Adult" is definitely not the term you're going for here, totally unsuited for the context of this series.

Plus, I agree with Great Mara. You're offended by that term "commit suicide"? I'm offended by your atrocious caps lock edit summary: it not only fails to get your point across because the delivery was distracting plus you plastered that whole phrase you say not to use so prominently in the Recent Changes page.

Please, do not ever do that again.  BLUER   一番   09:16, September 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * I haven't played EVERY SMT-related game, but I know that the series contains sexual references, depictions of death, suicide, murder, self-mutilation, rape, etc, which is why I consider it an "adult" game series. I wouldn't even consider it appropriate for some 17 year olds (some teens are able to take such content, others can't), so just using "adult" as a blanket statement safely gets the point across. Maturity is something that develops differently for everyone.
 * Yes, many people are offended by the usage of commit suicide because it likens suicide to a crime and makes it seem as if the dead are "criminals" who are bad people. It's a horrible, disrespectful stigma. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  09:23, September 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * You don't have to play every game, you just have to go through every single game cover and refer to the ratings the games were given and go from there. Honestly speaking, we are definitely not going by your definition, but by the standard set by the industry.  BLUER   一番   09:36, September 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * It doesn't exactly "work like that", because this is a wiki which is totally interlinked, so while someone may browse for content on an article which is fine, they may click a link and suddenly read dark and morbid stuff. Saying, "This wiki contains mature (17+) content" isn't descriptive enough because it may be interpreted as "This wiki is fine to read as long as you are at least 17 years old", and then we have 17 year olds reading about death, suicide, murder, self-mutilation, rape, etc. Don't you see how this is problematic? — Alex Shepherd   ツ  09:44, September 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * "and then we have 17 year olds reading about death, suicide, murder, self-mutilation, rape, etc. Don't you see how this is problematic?" - no, i don't. anyway, "commit" doesn't necessarily imply a bad thing. you can commit yourself to improvement, commit yourself to studies, commit to building something, etc. you can commit yourself to more than just crimes. and for the record, i'm very pro-right-to-suicide. self-sovereignty, a fundamental human right, means you can do anything you want with your body, including committing suicide. Tathra (talk) 06:52, September 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * Please see this. You're right, commit doesn't HAVE to be used in the "criminal committing a crime" sense. However, it IS where it comes from, and it DOES have the possibility of having this connotation. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  07:00, September 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * a word's etymology does not determine its future, nor current uses or meanings, its merely an interesting footnote in its history for those who care to look it up. Tathra (talk) 07:41, September 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * Saying "commit suicide" should still be avoided. As long as we say things like "He committed arson/rape/murder/theft", etc, and also say "He committed suicide", then that criminal stigma will still remain subconsciously. People subconsciously link things and ideas together, even if it's not directly said. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  07:58, September 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * i understand that many words have baggage and insinuations attached to them, eg "drugs" vs "medicine" as words for the exact same thing, but instead of avoiding the 'bad' words i intentionally choose to use them more often to help remove the stigma attached to them. this is a better way to fight their stigma than by making them 'forbidden' and giving them even more power to harm. Tathra (talk) 08:05, September 21, 2015 (UTC)

Block
And that just earned you a block for three days. You don't get to throw a mud-slinging tantrum when you don't get your way. Continued behavior like that will lead to escalating bans. This wiki is about the Megaten series, the additions weren't specifically about why the Shadows were being accepted or necessary. Great Mara (talk) 01:24, June 15, 2016 (UTC)


 * You're a bigoted transphobe and homophobe, because the point of Naoto and Kanji's dungeons are COMING TO TERMS WITH THEIR HOMOSEXUAL AND TRANSGENDER feelings. Kanji and Naoto are accepting the fact that their Shadows (who are INDEED gay and transsexual) are manifested from facets of their identity ("I am you, and you are I. You are a part of me.") — Alex Shepherd   ツ  01:27, June 15, 2016 (UTC)
 * And now you've lost your talkpage priveleges for the duration. The sexual orientations weren't specifically why the Shadows were being accepted. You very well know that. Great Mara (talk) 01:32, June 15, 2016 (UTC)

The two remaining thieves.
I noticed you've uploaded the Phantom Thieves in their costumes. Here are links to the last two.

http://fuckyeah-persona5.tumblr.com/post/146358890977/domi-persona-%E9%AB%98%E5%B7%BB-%E6%9D%8F-full-body-illustration-from

http://fuckyeah-persona5.tumblr.com/post/146358882932/domi-persona-%E4%B8%BB%E4%BA%BA%E5%85%AC-full-body-illustration-from

I just hope I did well.Pof203 (talk) 06:04, June 25, 2016 (UTC)

Adding video
If you want to add Youtube video to wikia article, embed it by creating the file page in the wikia. Also avoid adding video links that is either private or very likely to be removed for copyright issue like the one you added to Morgana. If you see a video has been taken down, you're obligated to remove it from the article by yourself. -- Inpursuit (talk) 02:41, September 30, 2016 (UTC)

Okay, the Asahi wiki page has had two acts of vandalism...I know it's minor right now, but is there any way we can set up a block? I get REALLY tired of seeing crap like this.OtakuNation666 (talk) 02:02, October 17, 2016 (UTC)

Anna
Hey, I'm writing about the edit on Anna Yoshizaka's page. It was important to mention she is a lesbian and not bisexual because she is not attracted to any men, let alone Tatsuya. She doesn't have any romantic feelings for him. Her "emotional attachment" is only ever stated to be that of a close friend, because she became his close friend in EP. Just wanted to clear this up? I'm not trying to be mean, but please don't facilitate conjecture on the pages if you haven't played the game, either.


 * The previous edit claimed she did have feelings for Tatsuya, and it claims this information can be found in the PSP extra scenario of EP. You probably never saw it because it was not localized. Have you considered this? — Alex Shepherd   ツ  04:52, April 5, 2017 (UTC)


 * I have, I have read the entirety of that scenario. There is still nothing to suggest she loves him, I'm being genuine with you. I could link you to the translation of the scenario if you would like to read it, but it is quite long and if you haven't played the game you may not understand it? The original edit failed to make a convincing point, as it didn't cite a particular dialogue, and cited "emotional attachment" (which could mean anything) as a source for her supposedly being romantically attracted.
 * Susato (talk) 04:56, April 5, 2017 (UTC)


 * Yeah, please link me to the translation of the scenario, as well as the novelization where she says "I love you" to Yukino. And I do agree that "emotional attachment" is vague and doesn't necessarily mean romantic or a definite indicator of a sexual orientation. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  05:02, April 5, 2017 (UTC)


 * Sure thing! You can find a good translation of the scenario here . And here is the page where Anna says she loves Yukino. It is said in both Japanese and German.
 * Susato (talk) 05:08, April 5, 2017 (UTC)


 * Can you please give me the name of this Persona 2 novelization? Some games have a ton of them. Apparently there's two of them? Which one is it? — Alex Shepherd   ツ  05:18, April 5, 2017 (UTC)


 * No problem, it is the Persona 2: Innocent Sin novel, which would be the one on the right in that picture.  This is its rerelease edition on Ebay, for example. The only difference between the editions is the cover.
 * Susato (talk) 05:27, April 5, 2017 (UTC)

Please stop editing Jun Kurosu's page. People who have played the game agree that he is clearly shown to be gay, he asks out Tatsuya and is clearly stated multiple times to be a romantic rival to Lisa for his affections. Your revisions are past ignorance at this point, and you're insulting LGBT contributors where their insights should be valued. Susato (talk) 05:40, April 5, 2017 (UTC)


 * Many people interpret Kanji is gay, but it doesn't mean we can go and claim Kanji is gay. At most, it seems all there is are hints.


 * he asks out Tatsuya and is clearly stated multiple times to be a romantic rival to Lisa for his affections


 * Please link me to this.


 * you're insulting LGBT contributors where their insights should be valued.


 * No, I'm not. I'm just asking for proof. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  05:47, April 5, 2017 (UTC)


 * I have edited his page with exhaustive citations on his sexuality because this is apparently what you need to be convinced. Stop editing pages if you haven't played those games. He is not "interpreted" as gay, he is in love with Tatsuya. If you played the game you would know this.
 * Susato (talk) 06:19, April 5, 2017 (UTC)

Goro
Goro already implied the reason he smiled was because he got so caught up in his emotions. Play the game instead of going by screencaps, and stop insisting on having your misinformation put in the wiki despite several people disagreeing.


 * That means absolutely nothing. If anything, that just proves he's even more of a psychopath. He smiled after killing two people. We call that a "psychopath". "Being caught up in his emotions" somehow means he's no longer a psychopath? Yeah, right. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  04:09, April 7, 2017 (UTC)

That's still speculation of his condition, even if that seems is to be the case we don't know if that literally is the case. We see that he's crazy but labeling them with a mental condition without a confirmation is a no no (unlike Sudou which in P2 is confirmed to be mentally unstable). Crok425 (talk) 04:57, April 7, 2017 (UTC)


 * It isn't "labeling" with a mental condition. It's merely saying he *could* have it due to strong evidence. Goro is NOT a mentally sound character. He is a serial killer who smiles after killing people and he goes absolutely delirious during his boss fight when his self-image is attacked and criticized. His personality section should absolutely discuss this. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  05:11, April 7, 2017 (UTC)

I'm not arguing if it should be discussed or not... I'm arguing that labeling them with a mental disorder isn't a good idea since we are not psychologists who can give a fictional character with the proper condition. For all we know he is a sociopath or a psychopath, a narcisstic sociopath or all ofthem together. You can at least mention that he has questionable behaviour regarding actions that are considered inhuman. Crok425 (talk) 05:27, April 7, 2017 (UTC)
 * We don't need to be psychologists with degrees and diplomas in order to suggest a character may have a mental disorder, especially when there's heavy evidence there is. It's called a *basic analysis*. Your only evidence against this is a weak "it's not a good idea because we aren't professionals". People do basic analyses of characters and their mental health (if necessary) all the time, even when it's not officially claimed. Getting all worked up when it's blatantly obvious there is something mentally ajar with a character is something I can't agree with, to the point where we aren't even allowed to admit that there *might* be something mentally wrong with a character. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  05:39, April 7, 2017 (UTC)

When did I said he wasn't mentally ajar? That is obvious but again, I'll repeat... "could have", "may have" or "might" doesn't work... and you call my arguement weak. Like I said, I don't mind if it's only pointing out that he has an uncommon behaviour while doing inhuman things like killing... then again, you won't listen so do whatever you want. Crok425 (talk) 05:51, April 7, 2017 (UTC)
 * By your logic, should *EVERYTHING* with uncertain language on a wiki be removed on a wiki? All possibilities? Because it sounds like that's what you want. There is no rule on this wiki that all speculation/possibilities/uncertain language should be removed. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  05:56, April 7, 2017 (UTC)
 * Because it's a game wiki that's inherently about objective facts of the games. Do I honestly need to write something that basic in the manual of style when it should already be a given? Great Mara (talk) 06:02, April 7, 2017 (UTC)
 * Wikis serve different purposes for different rules, and each wiki has different leniency rules when it comes to speculation and uncertain language. For example, Ryuji's Trivia mentions he might be named after Sakamoto Ryōma, but there is no proof of that. Why not remove that? The double standards are apparent, especially when it comes to the topic of mental health. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  06:07, April 7, 2017 (UTC)
 * Then either remove it or change things to where they're only objective fact where possible. Great Mara (talk) 06:15, April 7, 2017 (UTC)
 * Then a lot of valueable information is lost. A lot of speculation and analysis comes from well-justified and logical reasoning. If you want this wiki to be pure objectivity, then why do the Interpretation/Meaning/Symbolism sections on the Arcana _____ exist? (e.g. Arcana Emperor, Arcana Hermit, etc)? Again, just more double standards. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  06:23, April 7, 2017 (UTC)
 * Because the interpretations of the Arcana has been a thing since they were created, it's like a guidebook on what they mean and what they represent. Emperor representing a leading role and such... it's not double standard. Crok425 (talk) 06:26, April 7, 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is a double standard. It is pure speculation with potential to be wrong, and I doubt it comes from some official Persona 3 guidebook. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  06:29, April 7, 2017 (UTC)
 * ... Are you kidding me? The tarot representation of arcanas and readings don't originate from Persona 3, it has been a thing since a shit ton of time ago. Saying what an Arcana represents in the wiki isn't a double standard because that's what they literally represent since they were created in said shit ton of time ago. Crok425 (talk) 06:35, April 7, 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, I realize the tarots and their common meanings don't stem from P3, but the articles try to correlate these aspects to the Shadows, and this is where the speculation and potential to be incorrect arises. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  06:39, April 7, 2017 (UTC)

No, I'm not saying everything should be removed, I'm saying that the label may not be accurate so giving him that "basic analysis" isn't going to work. Speak to Otherarrow, he pointed out to me that speculations shouldn't be part of the wiki. If anything... if you want to give him a "basic psychological analysis" then the "possibilty" of him having that mental condition then add it to the trivia section... Besides, I dunno why you're being so defensive when I'm just trying to reach an agreement on this subject. I don't know why it's necessary to even give them a psychological condition to these characters... I don't see the point and I don't see how that adds something to the character itself, for all we know Goro could just be outright evil and deceiving or he might have a mental condition. But if you want to label him that then go right ahead since it seems that arguing something as meaningless as a character's personality causes you to be defensive and say things about how my logic works... thus you're getting worked up over this not me. Also, no, I didn't know what a strawman arguement was... I just searched and no I didn't turn any arguement into a strawman. Whatever, do whatever you want. Crok425 (talk) 06:21, April 7, 2017 (UTC)


 * Nearly everything with uncertain language has the potential to be inaccurate, so according to your logic, all uncertain language should be removed or put into Trivia according to you. But this only applies to "mental health" for... some reason of yours? Again, double standards, especially when it comes to mental health. I feel like it is a good idea to analyze a character's mental health (if necessary), because I feel it is a notable component of "personality" that should be addressed. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  06:27, April 7, 2017 (UTC)

Fine, cool, do whatever you want, I already said this. If you're going to be like that and speak of my logic then do whatever you please... but first a key sentence you wrote "Nearly everything with uncertain language has the potential to be inaccurate"... but okay, I'm wrong you're right... if you wanna put possible inaccuracies into the wiki go right ahead and deal with the mods and admins later, who gives a shit at this point.


 * I never intended to get into this with admins or you. It was originally between me and Nnommu. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right. The issue of uncertain language on a wiki and how it's handled is a subjective issue where people come to an agreement. Feel free to leave if you desire. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  06:36, April 7, 2017 (UTC)

The whole uniform thing
I swear... anyway. It's not about explaining if that's the reason why the characters altered their uniforms, it's about if it's actually confirmed or not, unless Atlus confirms such claims you make then speculations don't go in this wiki as Otherarrow once pointed out. Yukari and Yukiko follow the protocol of the uniform, Junpei as well albeit a blue shirt instead of a white one... Ann however has a baseball shirt and red tights... that's in no way comparable to a colored cardigan (which is within standards of japanese high school uniforms) and a blue shirt. While Chie seems to be a worse case to discuss we also don't know if below her jumper is the uniform or not. All in all Ann altered the whole thing while the other four you mentioned only have a cardigan, a different colored shirt and a jumper that is possibly over the regular uniform. Not to mention we could also bring up they were made that way so they stand out as main characters in the game while others are freaking NPC's. Crok425 (talk) 04:57, April 7, 2017 (UTC)
 * It isn't pure unfounded speculation. I think there is sizable evidence because it is confirmed that Ann wears a unique uniform because she doesn't care what people think about her, and it's for the purpose of standing out. It's about putting two-and-two together. You're also turning this into a strawman - I'm not arguing if it's a dress code violation, but the Persona cast compared to the rest of the other students, there is obviously a unique and distinct clothing difference seen them. Even you admit "they stand out as main characters". All in all, I don't care enough to change the article or get into a huge-lengthy debate about clothing. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  05:05, April 7, 2017 (UTC)

Put two and two together what? They stand out as main characters and thus they wear the uniform that way cuz they don't care what society thinks of them? Who was the one turning this into a strawman? Please... one thing is evidence, another is actual facts about the matter, Ann is confirmed to do that... not the other four. Crok425 (talk) 05:23, April 7, 2017 (UTC)
 * I didn't turn this into a strawman. There can be multiple reasons for a character's design. It is definitely to make them stand out compared to other NPCs, but it is also possible that they want to show these characters are "unique" and "different", not just from a "main character" perspective, but also from a "society" and "personality" perspective. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  05:32, April 7, 2017 (UTC)

You did. Saying "it could be possible" is pulling at straws, that's speculation, that may be the cause and it may not be, you don't know that. The fact that they wear different clothes might be because they want to, it might be because they prefer to wear a pink cardigan instead of the black jacket, they might prefer a blue shirt over a white one. Ann's character may be about not following Japanese society's standards, but we never see anything like it with the other four people we mentioned... thus you speculate that they might be wearing a slightly altered uniform for the reason of fuck society... and yeah... that's a strawman. Crok425 (talk) 05:55, April 7, 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't think you truly know what a "strawman" argument is. Anyway, the speculation talk is just spilling into Goro's section, so let's just end this conversation. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  06:00, April 7, 2017 (UTC)

Block (II)
I would have thought you'd have learned your lesson the first time, but since you want to continue with the insults you can sit out another block. And if you can't improve your behavior, it will be a month next time. Great Mara (talk) 17:33, May 5, 2017 (UTC)


 * This block is total bullshit and I think you're a terrible admin. So what, we aren't allowed to offend other editors at all? In the real world, feelings get hurt. Or is it because I think you're a bigot, and your precious feelings got hurt? Am I not allowed to publicly express my opinion if I think an editor is a bigot? And calling an editor a "bigot" isn't that much of an insult - all it means is someone who is intolerant of other's beliefs. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  18:43, May 5, 2017 (UTC)
 * Is some part of insulting other editors unclear to you? It doesn't matter what the degree of it is. Either keep it to yourself or edit elsewhere. Great Mara (talk) 18:59, May 5, 2017 (UTC)


 * This is extremely unclear, because what counts as an "insult" is subjective. Another editor could call another "foolish" or a "silly goose" and it could count as an insult. Would you ban them too? There's mild insults, harsh insults, and hate speech. What I said was an extremely mild insult. It's not like I said anything like hate speech. Didn't you say before that LGBT people are "mentally ill"? Surely, that counts as an "insult", so you should ban yourself. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  19:03, May 5, 2017 (UTC)
 * See above. For the latter, I'm not discussing the DSM volumes here. Great Mara (talk) 19:12, May 5, 2017 (UTC)


 * So you're basically admitting that the tiniest and littlest of insults are a bannable offense. Calling someone either a "fool", "silly", "illogical", "meanie", "jerk", "creepy", "dummy", "nincompoop", "nerd", "dolt", etc, is a bannable offense. You should mention this in the rules. How would anyone know otherwise? And by this logic, you should ban Crok425 because they called me a "jackass" earlier and they hurt my precious feelings. Or do only YOU get to decide what's a bannable insult and what isn't, and make special cases? — Alex Shepherd   ツ  19:22, May 5, 2017 (UTC)


 * So you're just going to tell Crok "please don't call other users a jackass", let my week ban remain, and leave it at that? You should note in the rules that "jackass" merely only gives someone a warning, while "bigot" results in a full week ban. What a joke. This is so unfair. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  19:51, May 5, 2017 (UTC)


 * Don't talk to me about unfair. Crok doesn't have any prior instances of this behavior, so yes, he gets a warning. You do. You've been banned for the same thing already. You get an escalated ban. And I'm done with this back and forth. Great Mara (talk) 01:48, May 6, 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, I WILL talk to you about how you're unfair. You do not get to decide what I can and can not talk about. They call that "censorship". How was I supposed to know that even the tiniest, silliest and most minuscule of insults can get someone banned, when it's never stated anywhere in the rules? How was I supposed to know you banned me earlier for calling you a bigoted transphobe/homophobe, when your block didn't make that clear and implied that you did it because you felt I was being difficult? It's not my fault your poor, precious, such delicate little feelings were hurt, and that you can't deal with being called bigoted or phobic when most people can take it. Grow thicker skin and learn how to handle criticism and insults instead of resorting to banning people unfairly since most people would expect an admin can take a small nudge like that. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  06:14, May 6, 2017 (UTC)


 * I hate to butt in like this but I'm just gonna throw my two cents into this heated discussion. Great Mara isn't censoring you, he's mostly talking about that the thing that gets you banned is behavior (as he stated before). For example, I was pissed off by the whole accusations that aren't true that you were making towards me no matter how many times I clarified the misunderstanding you kept at it which led me to insult you. "It's not my fault your poor, precious, such delicate little feelings were hurt, and that you can't deal with being called bigoted or phobic when most people can take it." This is exactly what I'm talking about, the behavior itself is the problem, not the insults themselves. "Grow thicker skin and learn how to handle criticism" And this is ironic considering that when we criticised your trivia you resorted to insults and accusations because we didn't agree with you. Either way, just food for thought... I'm leaving. Crok425 (talk) 08:29, May 6, 2017 (UTC)


 * He isn't censoring me yet, but I don't doubt he would. He removed my ability to edit my talk page last time, censoring me and making me unable to defend myself. He's ordering what I am and am not allowed to talk about, and ordering me not to defend myself, which qualifies as censorship. And in reality, people accuse each other of things which the accused often don't think is true, which the accuser thinks is true. Feelings get hurt. People get annoyed. That's part of LIFE. People have the right to insult and accuse. And there is a strong difference between calling someone a "jackass" versus a "bigot". A jackass is worse, while a bigot is merely someone who is intolerant to other's opinions. Don't act like you're somehow in the right while I'm in the wrong because I've been trying to keep it civil. You called me "blind", "jackass", "pathetic", and "simple-minded".


 * Also, since I am unable to edit the P5 talkpage due to this stupid block, I'm willing it continue our discussion here. Crok, you're such a hypocrite. You accuse me of saying things I don't say. For example, I think you're part of the problem because you removed the Trivia, not because you didn't agree with it. And no, I did NOT say "cuz LGBT people are offended" is the only reason why I think the Trivia should remain, I said it should remain because it qualifies as a notable and interesting point to think about. There are lots of Trivia points which I don't think are particularly interesting, but I don't remove every single uninteresting Trivia point I come across because I accept that people have different interests. That IS my "reasonable point" and "rational argument" which you fail to address. Your counter-argument that because it's not "controversial" enough does not negate my point that people may still find it interesting. There are people who are interested in the representation itself, rather than the controversy. Because you think controversy matters so much, you are forcing your beliefs on everyone else. Anyway, you accuse me of not reading what you say, when you do the exact same to me. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  09:16, May 6, 2017 (UTC)


 * ... Well... he's an admin so I don't see how that is a bad thing, considering admins and mods and a lot of people like that control behavior like this (either yours or mine). Also, I didn't called you a jackass per-se, I said you were acting like one... but if that what bigot means doesn't that make you one too? I mean, you got intolerant of my opinion on the matter which led you to use accusations and insults. Either way, while it's true everyone has the right to use insults and accusations it really isn't the way to do things... it isn't right... and no you didn't try to keep it civil because you started with the accusation of me forcing my beliefs on other which time and again I told you that wasn't the case, if that's civil for you I don't wanna know what's heated. Yes, I did call you blind because always seem to skip my clarifications on your accusations like the Erica deal and such and no, I wasn't doing the same thing, I didn't fail to address it because I did say I didn't agree with those points because I didn't see it as rational or valid. I called you pathetic and simple minded because of the following quotes "If you actually cared about LGBT people, you would shrug and let it remain." and "And you said "good luck keeping that shit there". You're basically admitting that caring about how LGBT people are portrayed is "shit". You're not helping when it comes to not looking like a bigot." .... you take a word and take it to the literal level and all this made it look about how you retort to accusations when people don't agree with you like a bigot and part of the problem no matter how many times people clarify that is not the case, like now for example... I bet that even with clarifying this you still think I'm a bigot and part of the problem, the insults isn't the thing that gets to me but the ammount of immaturity on your part when it comes to LGBT issues. Sure I retorted to insults too but only because you started the whole thing, no I'm not in the right since I don't like a discussion dwelling on insults so I will apologize for that.
 * ...I took the bait and responded when I didn't want to... either way, I don't want to keep this up anymore since it becomes a circlejerk and never end.


 * All "civil" means is being polite. Civil people can make accusations. They're called polite accusations. Anyway, can we stop with the whole ad hominem? Calling each other "bigots", "immature", "not listening to each other", etc, back and forth isn't getting us anywhere. I could refute all your claims and find examples of how you're a bigot/immature/make accusations/etc, and you could do so against me. However, I feel like if I did, we'd just go back and forth in endless circles, so let's drop that.


 * Let's just focus on the actual argument. I made the point that the Trivia should be kept because at the end of the day, it still qualifies because it is interesting enough for a lot of people and notable in my opinion. You just made the claim that this is not a "rational" or "valid" argument. Please clarify. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  20:47, May 6, 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm cool with that.
 * Anyway, before I answer... did you play P5?


 * At the moment, no. Don't have a PS3/PS4 yet, sadly. I've watched a ton of videos and read a lot about it, and basically spoiled myself the entire story. -_- Not a big deal for me, tho. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  15:16, May 7, 2017 (UTC)


 * I see... anyway, you made the claim that it's interesting for a lot of people and notable due to being a problematic represantation based on the men in question apparently harrassing teenagers that conviniently, the latter, were on the red light district and afterwards on the beach. Considering it was the red light district I don't see how the gay men in question could have made a misunderstanding, but either way due to this I don't see it as a valid reason to put it unless the controversy is made wide enough (even if the point isn't the controversy itself), due to this whole thing of the "harraser" and the "harrased" being on the red light district (place of prostitution, btw) this whole problematic issue becomes questionable and if it comes to the conclusion of not being problematic then putting it on the trivia would be just for the sole reason of "Yo, there are gay men in this game." which doesn't seem relevant to the entire topic of trivia. Besides, said gay men appear only twice in the game as far as I know. Also, at the beach scene while it's true those men were being atracted to teenagers and tried to hit on them, afterwards Ann and Makoto were having the same deal with some other guys that appeared to be adults as well.
 * Either way, what I wanted to point out as well is that these gay men were used as comic relief but I don't believe it was with ill intent since there's a transexual (or transgender, I don't know the proper term here) in P5 called Lala Escargot that is treated with the upmost respect... not to mention Atlus has handled gay men repsectfully before in the series such as Jun and early Kanji before the whole thing when fans decided he's at least bi. So yeah, I don't see how "The only represantation of LGBT people in the game are gay men that are shown to be flamboyant nad having a lisp in the JPN track." is valid or reasonable to be included because for one they are not the only represantation, and two Japan uses stereotypes for a lot of stuff when it comes to men, women, gays, foreigners, etc. just to put a bit of comedy in it (like Lisa's parents being Japanophiles being a not really common but known trope) unless said individual of said group is a main character which becomes a serious character without any sort of offense.
 * Besides, this sort of thing is only meant to be discussed in forums like gamefaqs, tumblr, twitter, etc. due to being debatable, because putting a piece of trivia (aka a piece of info) that is debatable wether or not is problematic nulls your take of being a fact since there are clashing opinions on it... so the only way that the piece of trivia could be accepted in general (not just me, forget about my say in this example) is if it becomes a wide controversy as it would be made notable by the masses like the whole thing with Erica was, the only way the trivia is in her page isn't because it's debatably problematic that she started having nightmares and her relationship with Toby but the controversy those two things created in the fanbase making the case still debatable if it's problematic or not but became notable and an interesting piece of trivia/info.


 * Anyway, I dunno if I made my point in this wall of text since I slept like crap today and I'm not thinking straight, not to mention I have some sort of evaluation in college today and I really haven't studied much since I got my books like 4 days ago (fucking kill me >_>). So if anything sounds confusing let me know so I can word it better. Crok425 (talk) 11:52, May 8, 2017 (UTC)

Morgana
The "re-addition" was the result of an edit conflict not happening when I moved it to the bottom of the trivia section and added the clear template. Which I removed again after I saw your edit in the RC. But I guess removing the clear template again just to get a snide comment in was worth it now, wasn't it? Great Mara (talk) 04:17, May 19, 2017 (UTC)


 * When I clicked "undo", I thought I was removing the Trivia re-addition. Call it bad timing, or a Wikia glitch. Anyway, why do you re-add those dumb clear templates at the bottom of Trivias anyway? They're totally unnecessary and add unnecessary spacing. I don't see the point of them. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  04:25, May 19, 2017 (UTC)
 * Because they add a margin buffer between the navboxes and end text without having to use repeating line breaks. Great Mara (talk) 04:36, May 19, 2017 (UTC)
 * Could you explain that in simple English please? What's a "Margin buffer"? Why do we need a "margin buffer"? — Alex Shepherd   ツ  04:39, May 19, 2017 (UTC)
 * It puts a line of space between the box and text so that the boxes aren't butted up right against it. Otherwise, there would need to be ~2-3 blank lines before Wikia's software would render the single space. Great Mara (talk) 05:04, May 19, 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't think the navboxes are "butted right up against it" at all (without a clear). I think it looks perfectly fine. I think there's too MUCH space with the clear. So basically, you're doing all of this because you have a space fetish, and having the navbox too close to the text makes you uncomfortable. — Alex Shepherd   ツ  05:12, May 19, 2017 (UTC)
 * And it's back to the same pattern again... I'm done. Great Mara (talk) 05:20, May 19, 2017 (UTC)