Talk:YHVH

Editing
This page needs a bit of editing, as there are a few errors in here. First, in Megami Tensei II, Lucifer isn't Ahura Mazda. Asura is Ahura Mazda and Lucifer breaks his curse, turning him back to his true form before the battle with YHVH. Second, in Shin Megami Tensei II, Lucifer doesn't crumble to dust after YHVH's defeat. Only Satan does that. Lastly, and probably most importantly, YHVH is probably not the "Great Will." He's part of the Great Will. The term for "Great Will" is 大いなる意思 and is used in both MTII and SMTII, both during YHVH's death speeches. This is as opposed to 神 which is how YHVH is usually referred to in-game. In MTII YHVH reveals the Great Will to be a conglomerate entity, a hive-mind of powerful deities of which he is but a tiny part. (And threatens that another member of the Great Will may come after you now that you killed him) In SMTII, in YHVH's death speech, he says that the Great Will will recreate him if people start worshipping him again. While it's possible that this has changed for Nocturne since there's no real evidence that it's connected to previous games, it's unlikely just in terms of consistency between games. It's strongly implied that Kagutsuchi is another part of the Great Will, and the most likely scenario of the True Demon ending is the Hitoshura leading the forces of Chaos against the all parts of the Great Will. (If you're going to wildly speculate about 3 being connected to the previous games, this also makes the most sense--the Chaos ending if II is canon, YHVH is dead and Lucifer has set his sights toward destroying the remainder of the Great Will) 66.250.143.214 01:47, April 2, 2010 (UTC)

Does this page really require "(Hebrew:הוהי)"?

Woops, I'm responsible for these YHWH => YHVH edits. Wasn't logged in on this browser --Yksehtniycul 21:41, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

SOURCE PLEASE[ The word "YHVH" roughly translates as "I was, I am, and I will be"] --Yksehtniycul 21:56, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

"Despite being characterized as a being who constantly opposes the player characters, the directors of the Shin Megami Tensei games have gone on record as saying that God is not the source of all evil"

Of course not. Loki is the source of all evil. Obviously (75.170.195.208 19:34, 30 July 2009 (UTC))

—YHVH Pre and after battle speech
Can someone source this translation please?--Yksehtniycul 08:46, 1 August 2009 (UTC)


 * --Bufula 17:29, 1 August 2009 (UTC)


 * This looks like an unlicensed translation. The author should be cited after the quote for source/credit. Any idea what this translation effort is called?--Yksehtniycul 21:22, 1 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It is the Aeon Genesis Translation. The Translation Patch has been released since what? 5 years or so? --Bufula 22:31, 1 August 2009 (UTC)


 * ^I dunno, there should be a page about it. --Yksehtniycul 02:29, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

If YHVH isn't the real problem, what is?
Kazuma Kaneko has gone on record saying that God (or YHVH) is not the source of all evil. In fact, I've heard that it's implied that YHVH's evil-doings are a symptom of something wrong with the bigger picture. But what could that be? Is it possible that part of Man's conception of God is responsible that part of God's character, and in turn responsible for the evil acts? Or is it something else entirely? GalaxiaWild 20:15, November 3, 2011 (UTC)

YHVH was one of the gods who were part of the Great Will. He's dead. He's been dead since SMT2.

Strange Journey expands upon this and states his parts were strewn all over the universe by the Mothers of Strange Journey upon his death from Aleph. This info in Strange Journey is given by Metatron. Metatron of Strange Journey claims to be piece of 'the Lord' and just took that form temporarily until he can fuse himself with Demiurge, the strongest piece of 'the Lord'.

The Great Will is a conglomeration of all the major gods/goddesses that are Lawful. YHVH and Kagutsuchi were both facets of the Great Will. Lucifer and Hitoshura go on to wage war against the other gods/goddesses that make-up the Great Will in the TDE. They're aiming to kill ALL the deities. The Truthful Knight 02:04, February 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Except SMT2 isn't the first time YHVH has died. And He is referenced in Devil Survivor as well. I believe Strange Journey says that the Mothers were the ones who "killed" Him and split Him up, but don't quote me on this, as I could be misremembering. As for YHVH being a facet of the Great Will (instead of Kagutsuchi being a facet of Him), I have to ask your source. Someone stated higher up on the page that in Megami Tensei II, YHVH outright states that He is one of many and others will come to avenge him, but they didn't post any actual source for that, and the Megami Tensei II translation is still incomplete, so I can't just go check. SMT2 doesn't mention anything like that at all, the only possible reference to a separate "Great Will" is him commenting that the will of the universe will revive him.--Otherarrow 04:15, February 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * Actually you are right Otherarrow. The Mothers defeated YHVH and he was broken into pieces as a result. Which the Motehrs proceeded to seal away in the backstory for Strange Journey.--JupiterKnight 10:56, February 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * Odd, I posted the perfect response and then I got a blank white screen error? Did someone temporarily ban me? -_-


 * Anyway... Devil Survivor is a separate series entirely. We're speaking of the Main Series titles in this context. SMT2 actually does refer to the Great Will. The problem was that 'Great Will' is the localized translation. YHVH referring to 'The will of the universe' reviving him is 'the Great Will'.


 * YHVH did die in SMT2. Aleph is cursed for committing the Ultimate Sin of killing YHVH. Hijiri is implied to be Aleph (and looks remarkably like the Re-designed Aleph of SMT2).


 * The Mothers capitalized on YHVH's death by rending his body and casting different parts of it all over the universe. Metatron explains this in Strange Journey and elaborates on the fact that Demiurge is the strongest piece of 'The Lord' (referring to YHVH). As you know, YHVH is strongly hinted at being Demiurge. YHVH cannot be the Great Will and Demiurge at the same time. He's merely an aspect of the Great Will just like Kagutsuchi was. He can come back, yes. But according to the story as it is now, YHVH is dead in the sense that he's lost all his power and has not been able to come back to his all-powerful form. The Great Will is the 'true enemy' Lucifer constantly mentions. The Truthful Knight 05:57, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

But what about the something that is wrong with the bigger picture? GalaxiaWild 09:32, February 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * If you discount Devil Survivor because it's not the same series, then you also have to discount Megami Tensei II, which is the only title where YHVH outright says he is one god among many in the Great Will (maybe, still not a source on that). The rest of the games are extremely vague on if the Great Will is YHVH, is a mindless universal law powered by human thought and prayer, or something else entirely. Also, there is also the whole "Strange Journey is not connected to Nocturne or SMTII at all" thing. For all we know, Strange Journey could be a prequel, and the Demiurge merging with Metatron is how YHVH was able to regain full form for SMTII in the first place. And then there is the fact that the Three Wise Men and the rest of the Law faction claim to serve Him even though He is currently sealed. It is possible that they are hiding His disappearance and working to unseal/remerge Him after the Mothers killed and divided Him.--Otherarrow 16:59, February 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * To GalaxiaWild: The 'wrong with the bigger picture' thing may be being subtlely hinted at throughout the games. I'm not entirely sure on that one but we do have Amaterasu's mysteries in SJ. At this point, they honestly haven't expanded on that storyline enough for us to make a judgement but I do believe we're getting subtle hints. Heck, Lucifer mentioned 'olden gods cast down' in SMT1 and we didn't meet the Mothers until Strange Journey. That's like decades apart and yet it's consistent lol.


 * To Otherarrow: Devil survivor is not part of the main SMT series which I'm speaking of. SMT Strange Journey definitely happened after Nocturne (and likely in another world). The proof? Mara. She speaks on the summoning gone wrong in SMT3 Nocturne. It's a joke but it still proves Nocturne came before SJ. Nocturne definitely came after SMT2 because otherwise Hijiri's existence and subtle hints at being Aleph wouldn't make sense.
 * Megami Tensei is technically a separate series but look at the name. Megami Tensei -> Shin Megami Tensei. Other then that, the information about the Great Will is consistent. Remember, it was made a very long time ago. They may have only thought of making canonical sequels until they made several spin-offs of Megami Tensei (and there have been many).
 * You should take note of the fact that only Nocturne, Strange Journey, and IF have the 'shin megami tensei' title in Japan. Devil Survivor doesn't, it's just called Devil Survivor in Japan and has been treated as it's own series. The Truthful Knight 17:21, February 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * The first Devil Summoner has the SMT title too. So you are saying If... and Devil Summoner are canon to SMT because they are SMT titles, that means their sequels and spinoffs, such as Persona and the Raidou Kuzunoha games, are also canon to the SMT games. And that's just getting into a whole other fit.
 * My problem with you disregarding Devil Survivor but including MTII is that you are basicly picking and chosing which games are canon or not. Non-SMT games are not canon and thus irrelevant, unless they happen to agree with your argument? The Megami Tensei games are not Shin Megami Tensei. Aside from YHVH and Lucifer's ongoing conflict against Him, they have no connection to SMT story wise at all.
 * Even if Strange Journey follows from Nocturne, there is also the fact that Strange Journey explicitly says that the Mothers were the ones who defeated and sealed YHVH. It is possible that He reformed after SMTII, as He said He would, but was defeated offscreen by the Mothers, split up, and sealed. This doesn't answer the question of if YHVH is The Great Will, part of the Great Will, or whatever. If MTII does indeed confirm the "Great Will is a group of Gods" thing, then OK. Problem solved. But the SMT games don't. At most, they only mention the Great Will in passing and don't explain what it actually is. I'd stop argueing until we get that vital evidence, as this isn't getting anywhere.--Otherarrow 17:52, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Then why are demons (with artwork from the series no less) from the other Shin Megami Tensei games in Devil Survivor? GalaxiaWild 17:57, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

To Otherarrow: Raidou has to be canon with the SMT series. Raidou IS in Nocturne in the final Japanese version. Don't forget that. He took over Dante's role. In Japan Nocturne is written as "Shin Megami Tensei 3: Nocturne".

I think you and I are just arguing semantics here. To me it seemed obvious that 'Will of the Universe' that YHVH himself mentions is a literal translation for 'Great Will'. Further, it fits the storyline because YHVH is broken to pieces. The Mothers never defeated him. Where is that even said? The Metatron of Strange Journey says that they sensed his weakness and sealed parts of him away. You should also take note that "Megami Tensei" translates to "Resurrection of the Goddess" and Shin Megami Tensei translates to "True Resurrection of the Goddess". SMT was meant to be a continuation of Megami Tensei to begin with... It's even in the name.

There's also the fact that YHVH isn't mentioned at all in SMT3 Nocturne. Hijiri appears and is hinted at being Aleph. Nocturne obviously had to take place after SMT2. The creators have mentioned that Strange Journey is SMT4. I mean, I always saw it as obvious. It's in the name, dude. How can you ignore that?

To GalaxiaWild: Because it's the same artist? A lot of the artwork was imported from older titles. It saves time and money to do it that way. Kazuma Kaneko does all the artwork of the demons though. The Truthful Knight 18:18, February 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * I consider MT, SMT and all it's spin offs (including Devil Summoner, Persona and so on), Devil Survivor, Digital Devil Saga, and heck, even Digital Devil Story to be canon to the SMT mutiverse. You are the one who are trying to brand certain parts of the franchise "noncanon". You can't have it both ways. You can't say "On, this part of the franchise isn't canon because it's not SMT" but then say "oh, this part of the franchise is, even though it isn't SMT either and predates SMT". It's all canon. We got a mutiverse going on here.
 * Going to your other point, YHVH is never mentioned in Strange Journey either. Just some guy called the Demiurge who is divided into parts, one of them Metatron, another one also the Demiurge. Sounds just as silly as what you are saying about Nocturne.
 * Also, you seem to be forgetting that MTII has YHVH die. And then he comes back just fine in SMTII. That doesn't matter. What matters is that we won't get anywhere until someone translates MTII's ending. This isn't the place to argue about canon. This is discussing the YHVH article. And so far, the main bit of evidence that will make or break either side is the ending of a untranslated game. Everything else seems too open to interpretation.--Otherarrow 19:16, February 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * I've recently gotten to the Alilat sidequest from Strange Journey to replay what happened. The Piece that took Metatrons form said they subdued YHVH just like he once subdued them. One of the things subdued can mean is to put someone under control by force. Which is what YHVH had done to them and what the Mothers did to YHVH. So yeah they did beat him. The reason he lost his strength in the first place that gave the Mothers their chance is thanks to human worship of YHVH began to falter. Then the Mothers tore him to pieces and sealed him away in many dimensions after their victory over him.--JupiterKnight 08:40, February 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Wasn't it mentioned that they first felt his weakness and then tore him to pieces? The weakness could've been caused by Aleph killing him. YHVH mentions people need God to cling to and rely on.
 * Edit Wait, 'subdue' doesn't mean 'beat'. Metatron mentions that they came up and viciously tore his body after he was weakened by something and then subdued him.
 * Another thing, if you only recently got to the sidequest then why did you agree with Otherarrow before when you likely had no idea what we were even talking about?
 * The Truthful Knight 16:57, February 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1st) If you noticed I said replay what happened and this is my fourth playthrough of the game. I specifically started playing it again to do the Demiurge quest to remember what the deal was with the Female voice from that quest since it's been a while since I've did the quest. It just so happens this discussion about YHVH happened before I faced Alilat. 2) It's stated that it was humans losing faith in him and the decrease in human worship of YHVH that weakened him and gave the Mothers their chance to strike. Aleph defeating him in SMTII is not responsible for anything that happened YHVH in Strange Journeys backstory. 3) Subdue can mean to conquer and bring under control. To conquer something you must use force. 4) The Mothers subdue YHVH and then they proceed to tear him into pieces and sealed those away in other dimensions AFTER the decrease in human worship weakened him.--JupiterKnight 18:01, February 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * The problem with that is YHVH's defeat by Aleph caused a decrease in human worship. In fact, YHVH's death speech specifically mentions that as long as people believe in him then the universe will have him come back. People didn't believe in him and then he was weakened to a point where the mothers could tear him apart.
 * Another subject though, I found his admittance about not being the creator of the universe and only having taken it over after the Mother's created it all to be more interesting. It's basically an admittance that he's a false god. The Truthful Knight 19:03, February 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * That does not mean that Aleph caused a decrease in human worship. All it means is that humans one day lost faith in him and worship decreased as a result. That doesn't mean Aleph is responsible! Because it's never stated in the game itself. It's nothing more than a theory of yours that Aleph is responsible!!--JupiterKnight 19:21, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

Look, this section is chiefly about Kazuma Kaneko's statement that "God is not the source of all evil", and the idea that something is wrong with the bigger picture, and I came to ask what that thing that is wrong with the picture. I didn't come looking for theories on Demiurge in Strange Journey (Although they are interesting). GalaxiaWild 20:15, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

There ARE problems with that which haven't been addressed. First, where is this interview? I haven't seen it so if someone could link it then maybe we would have a better understanding. Second, was he specifically talking about YHVH? DDS1-2's 'God' is different but is still referred to as 'God'. We also need to understand the context in which he said it in from the question posed.

Edit: To JupiterKnight: Oh, I got that point. The problem is, the series self-contained story makes it entirely plausible and many seem to be ignoring all the SMT2 cameos we've gotten throughout each game. DDS2 has the 4 angels and Satan from SMT2, SMT3 Nocturne had Aleph as Hijiri, and it makes sense for Strange Journey to give us a cameo of YHVH from SMT2. Also, you ignored Otherarrow's proposition that it may not be YHVH at all but a different deity The Truthful Knight 20:31, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't seriously suggesting the Demiurge isn't YHVH. I was poking fun at your claim that since YHVH wasn't directly mentioned in Nocturne, he can't have been the Great Will. But Great Mara is right, this is off topic. On topic, I do remember seeing the same interview, but I don't recall when I read it. I want to say it was around the time Strange Journey was first announced, but it could have been older.--Otherarrow 03:36, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Regarding YHVH vs the Great Will, Lucifer says in Nocturne that the Great Will created him, but both Lucifer and YHVH claim that YHVH created him in SMT2. That would seem to lead one to think that YHVH = Great Will in the Shin Megami Tensei series, even if that wasn't the case in the original Megami Tensei... NeonZ (talk) 13:54, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

YHVH vs YHWH
Why was YHWH changed to YHVH? General transcription into Latin characters is YHWH, so why the V? Sorry, I may seem ignorant as to the reasoning if YHVH appears in games in the series since I only have experience with Devil Survivor. A short explanation would be nice. Thragin 18:09, November 24, 2011 (UTC)Thragin
 * It's spelled YHVH, in English letters and everything, in the actual games. I believe YHVH is another valid writing of the Tetragrammaton.--Otherarrow 12:56, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Personality
Technically it's God now that I think about do they consider God a demon in the game? Beside it's not just a regular character he's like a Major Antagonist and he should had a personality section. Also there are no rule against Demon having a Personality section just. --Cococrash11 (talk) 03:56, March 18, 2013 (UTC)

Who the hell edited the original storyline regardinging YHVH? That isn't what happened at all. Metatron, YHVH in a weakened form, tells you outright that he stole the universe, the world, and humanity from the Mother Goddesses. They're the creators of everything. He just subjugated them, sealed them, and took over. The Truthful Knight (talk) 12:40, July 31, 2013 (UTC)

Split Great Will?
This might seem odd, seeing how the Great Will is often used interchangeably with YHVH or as a more "PR friendly" way to refer to Him, but I noticed that, especially in the earlier games, the Great Will is sometimes mentioned as something "above" YHVH and separate from Him. Not completely separate mind, Him being part of the Great Will is rather clear, but we list YHVH's Godly avatars as separate from Him, yes? I admit, I am not explaining it very well, so I will just say that I do think we could make a case for giving the Great Will it's own article and maybe flesh out more on just what it seems to be.--Otherarrow (talk) 02:15, December 4, 2013 (UTC)