User talk:Otherarrow

Thank you for the minor corrections ^^  BLUER   一番   13:24, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Have I met you before?
I saw you in the Fire Emblem Wiki! 124.104.176.134 12:27, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

So have I 124.104.186.117 01:51, June 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes. I am an admin there.--Otherarrow 12:44, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Megami Tensei.
Why did you delete so much of the material I added to the Megami Tensei page?
 * Because it was copied from Wikipedia. I went and checked.--Otherarrow 21:20, September 28, 2010 (UTC)

Of course I used copied portions from wikipedia. It has more details than this wiki. If you did not like it you could have just edited the information so it looked different.


 * Or you could have re-worked it before you even put it in the article. And linked it properly for this wiki so that it wasn't a dead giveaway. Great Mara 22:51, September 28, 2010 (UTC)

My bad
Sorry, other wikis asked me to do that, for some reason. Putting in the signature for some reason, so they can talk with those who submitted information.

And.. well... yeah I kinda do think it's important. He's a great character. I think it was brilliant of the game developers to make it so open ended, Kanji being a character that confirms who he is and accepting it on such a politicial issue these days is a big thing. The game left this character to be determined by the player, I honestly think he's straight, but that's just my point of perspective. And just cause a guy has a feminine heart doesn't mean he's gay, but possibly just sensative. So this not only appeals to the subconcious of guys like me who had wondered before - "just cause I'm touchy feely, that doesn't make me gay right?", but also appeals to those who ARE gay, and can yet still relate to Kanji. ((I sure as hell don't wear black leather jackets or stuff like that though.)) Woman made him terribly nervous, and it kept eating at his mind and making him wonder why even his soft side was rejected by woman. So while pointing out his orientation might not be important, it's nice to at least confirm for the audiences that are gay, that Kanji might possibly be bi.

((Note: trust me I'd use spell check if that option were available, and right clicking doesn't allow dictionary alternatives for words I might of spelled wrong. My bad. And is there any way to do a private message? I'm pretty sure I said something that sounds stupid or contradicting here but I'm never aware of it.))

Picture
Sorry for the blurry picture but it was the best i could work with my scaner was not working to wellMinato-Arisato 17:01, February 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * It's no problem. Keep up the good work.--Otherarrow 17:09, February 14, 2011 (UTC)

Maya Strange Journey
Terribly sorry, but I hafta admit I got that image more or less by a fluke and I haven't even been able to find the original page where I found it. I think it must have been a scan of Schwartzwelt Reminiscences, the unofficial Strange Journey artbook, which I have also tried to find unsuccessfully. I will keep searching and the moment I find anything I will post it and let you know.

Deimos 16:22, May 1, 2011 (UTC)PiousAugustus

Hello there. Just wanted to let you know I did, indeed, found some high-res scans of Strange Journey bosses, Maya included. Just gimme a few moments and I'll replace the old images - they are much better than the old ones.

Deimos 19:41, June 1, 2011 (UTC)

Dude, did you remove my trivia I added to the Innocent Sin page? I saw that it had been recently updated, but when I went to check it out, I noticed my contribution wasn't there anymore... It said you were the last to update it, so I was just wondering if you removed it...

If you did... why?

Icantfeelmyarms 20:11, September 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * The masks are Phoenix Featherman R masks, which is already referenced repeatedly in Persona 3. Besides, a Persona 3 screenshot doesn't need to be with Persona 2 screenshots.--Otherarrow 20:46, September 12, 2011 (UTC)

{C}Dude, it's referencing Persona 2... They're lined up in the exact order of the leader to the newest recruit... Notice how they're shaped exactly like they are in Persona 2, as well. I put the Persona 3 screen in there because it's the Persona 2 reference...
 * They are in that order and in that shape because those are the masks of the 5 Featherman Rangers, who are presumably in that order. Yes, Phoenix Ranger Featherman R is a blatant Persona 2 call back. If this mask thing was the only Featherman reference In P3, then I would let it stay but it's not. Featherman "episodes" show up on the TV on certain days. Ken has a Featherman action figure. Featherman gets referenced some more in Persona 4. It has grown more than "just a shout out to P2", at least IMO.--Otherarrow 23:50, September 12, 2011 (UTC)

That's completely understandable. I just think that those masks, though, how they're lined up is so... IDK... Like, it just seems to reference P2 too me... I know Featherman R shows up A LOT in P3, but the fact these masks are in the exact order as they had shown up in P2 and the fact they're at the shrine much like in P2 makes it seem like they're trying to reference Persona 2...

I don't want to cause any trouble, though... <.<; I'll stop putting it back up there, but I still think it's quite a shout-out to Persona 2... I never would have recognized them without playing Persona 2. When I first played P3, I totally didn't recognize them...

Icantfeelmyarms 23:58, September 12, 2011 (UTC)

Dude, on the Innocent Sin page it says IS MIGHT not have come out in the West due to a homosexial relationship between Jun and Tatsuya... I played through IS and don't remember any homosexual relationship... {C}What do you say about this? I mean, do you remember anything like that? :T

Icantfeelmyarms 03:39, September 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * If I recall correctly, after the fight with Shadow Lisa, you can chose which of your party members Tatsuya "likes". If you chose Jun, Tatsuya and Jun gain a specific negotiation tactic. (If you chose Eikichi, nothing happens outside of a funny scene). And outside of that, yeah, Jun likes Tatsuya.--Otherarrow 12:03, September 15, 2011 (UTC)

Uh...
"I'm Bluer here to welcome you(...)'? Bluer...? D: MinatoHikari 16:55, October 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * Bluer is the admin here. Why do you bring this up?--Otherarrow 17:01, October 9, 2011 (UTC)

Yuka Ayase in Persona 3
Why did you remove Yuka's information in Persona 3? And if its not her then who is it? --Cococrash11 15:38, November 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * One, Yuka isn't a natural blonde, and I doubt she will continue to bleach it after she became a housewife (see her P1 ending), not to mention the person had "bright blonde hair" and not the dirty blonde Yuka had, and 2. Yuka would be in her 30s, while the girl was described as in her 20s. The reference was to Lisa Silverman.--Otherarrow 15:46, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

About our discussion

 * Posted this on here since I didn't see a response in awhile and figured you hadn't seen it:
 * Yeah, I'm sorry I'm probably sounding snobbish, I know it's in different worlds but even with that it works fine. Heck, we have Masakados in SMT3 admitting that he's not from Nocturne's world despite appearing there. Yes, it's speculatory but so was Aleph being Hijiri and that's practically considered canon by almost all fans who know of it.
 * You should also note the extreme amount of SMT2 references in other games. Digital Devil Saga 2 had references to SMT2 with the 4 angels and Satan. In that game, the angels DID reference the Great Will.
 * SMT Nocturne had references to SMT2 with Hijiri's explanation. It's not at all a stretch to say that Demiurge is a reference to YHVH's aftermath from SMT2.
 * Look at it this way, we've been told the aftermath of what happened to Satan, to the 4 angels, to Aleph, and Demiurge is a clear reference to YHVH. All we need now is a reference to Hiroko from SMT2 and we'll have all the major players of that game accounted for.
 * Oh, btw, thanks for clearing up that mishap on the Dante page lol.
 * I'd like to also discuss a different topic... where did the theory of the 'Lady in Black' being Paimon come about? This might seem just as speculatory but I just read some info on the adventures of Cu Chuliann and in it there's a 'Triple Goddess' named Morrigan who turns into a young woman to give him her love and later turns into an old hag to insult him (it's because Cu Chuliann denied her love). Morrigan can also turn into a raven called Badb. Weirdly enough, in the TDE you see Lucifer and the Lady in Black disappear into the darkness with two black birds (Badb Catha?) fly towards New Kagutsuchi.

Now, I'm not endorsing the idea fully but I thought it was relevant enough and interesting to point out.The Truthful Knight 23:42, February 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, I just had nothing to say.--Otherarrow 22:59, February 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh... lol. Well, if it's alright with you and whomever else if I could add the Morrigan idea on the Lady in Black page right below Paimon? It's fine if I can't. It's just... there honestly seems to be more evidence that she's Morrigan given what she can do and says. The only thing Paimon has linked to Lucifer is loyalty and the young lady's appearance. My idea is just a fan theory though but I find it odd that the Lady in Black seems to follow so closely to the story of Cu Chuliann's Morrigan. The Truthful Knight 23:42, February 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * I have no problems with it.--Otherarrow 23:44, February 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * Er, not to open the can of worms, so-to-speak but...Here's an interview with Kazuma Kaneko where he refers to the 'Megami Tensei' series and 'Shin Megami Tensei' series interchangeably. Doesn't that prove it's the same series to a degree?

http://www.1up.com/features/shin-megami-tensei-nocturne

Ctrl + F: "GMR" to get to the interview section. It's pretty lengthy.

I do not mean to seem like a jerk! Not my intention. Sincerely sorry if I come off as offending. The Truthful Knight 00:24, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

Lebrys
Don't be sorry, man. This page (and other wikis) is to put the proper information, and because of that, we need to give opinions to reach a conclusion. I understand the whole Lebrys appearence, but still, she is making her debut on Persona 4: Arena, she may have appeared in A Certain Day of Summer, but only mentioned... that doesn't make her a P3 character, besides, CD Dramas don't tend to be canon. As for your Nanako example... she made her debut in Persona 4, so she would still have her P4 template. -- Crok425 02:23, March 5, 2012 (UTC)

Protagonist (Persona 4)
He is a Silent Protagonist so why shouldn't he be called Protagonist (Persona 4)? I mean other Silent Protagonist had name but some of them didn't change into the name of the articles. --Cococrash11 04:27, March 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Tamaki Uchida. She got a name in a later title, so she is known as Tamaki. Arena is canon to the Persona series. He is Yu Narukami in Arena, so that is his name. The other protagonists who got names got them in noncanon adaptations or other sources of questionable canon.--Otherarrow 04:30, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

How about this what if in Persona 5, Protagonist (Persona 4) was mention just like with Protagonist (Persona 3). But instead of it calling him Yu Narukami it just mention him with no name. How would you know it will still be called Narukami maybe its only for Arena that he has to have a name. --Cococrash11 21:17, March 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Arena is canon to the series. The creators have already said this. The only way a hypothetical mention in Persona 5 would invalidate that is if they specifically call him another name, or say something that contradicts Arena.--Otherarrow 21:29, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

So if Persona 5 says something different about (Protagonist Persona 4) we can change it? That sound great and fair. --Cococrash11 21:43, March 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * We already know that his canon name is Yu Narukami, why do you want to change it so badly? If they mention him in Persona 5, it will surely be like there was a boy or he was... that will not change that his name will still be Yu Narukami, not mentioning his name doesn't mean that he wasn't called Yu Narukami. It's the same case with Tatsuya Suou, even though his name was on Innocent Sin, the player can still change it, and in voiced clips, they call him you in the boss battles, almost leaving his name ambiguous, but not until all the characters called him Tatsuya in Eternal Punishment, then why not change his article Protagonist (Persona 2: Innocent Sin). The same goes with Tamaki, she was named in Persona 1, which technically is a sequel to If... then again, why not change the article to Protagonist (Shin Megami Tensei: If...) which is the exact same case with Yu. -- Crok425 22:21, March 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * Um, guys? I've seen some official material that still call him "Hero", so I'm wondering if the name is only for the arcade version to attract fans who have only seen the anime. How about we change it back to 'Protagonist (Persona 4)' and wait until both the console version of Arena and the Golden come out? If P2 is any indication, there's a possibility of them having the anime name by default.


 * EDIT: The Golden's site still has him as "Hero", making this change even more pointless. :/ CCMars 22:46, March 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Arena is still canon to the series. How many times must I say that? He is called Narukami in Arena, which is canon to the rest of the series. It doesn't matter if he is named "Yu Narukami" just to match up with the anime. The official materials you are referring to presumably predate Arena. (After all, Persona 4 has been out for a while, while Arena and the anime are both new.) Also, I doubt The Golden will give him an official name at all. Persona 4 didn't, and The Golden is just a port with extras of that. If I recall, If... got ports and rereleases after Persona, but it didn't have "Tamaki Uchida" as a default name for the protagonist.--Otherarrow 23:05, March 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * Um, actually, the ones I saw came out after. All the material I'm talking about is related to Arena. Some material use the name, others do not. And considering Tamaki is only a minor character in Persona as opposed to Narukami/Souji/whatever being the main in nearly every P4 related material, I'm not sure that's the best comparison... CCMars 23:11, March 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * I just checked the main P4U page. They have him listed as "Hero", but with "Yu Narukami" under parenthesis. The Arc version of the site (which focuses on the arcade version) only list him as 'Yu Narukami', making things even more confusing. CCMars 23:16, March 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * EDIT CONFLICT: Well, if you want to get technical, from the looks of things, Yu isn't the main character of Arena. Labrys is. I'll be honest, the only Arena related media I've seen that used "Protagonist" was the official site, which had "(Yu Narukami)" right next to it. All the actual gameplay I've seen just calls him Yu Narukami. I just assumed that they called him Protagonist in case people forgot that he was P4's protagonist. The site for the Arcade just calls him Yu Narukami, as you said. I'll be honest, I doubt they will rename him Protagonist again just for the home version.--Otherarrow 23:20, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

They are not going to change it back to protagonist, since it looks that he isn't the protagonist as you said. The same happened to Tatsuya, not being the MC of EP, the characters started to call him Tatsuya and he started speaking, so the article's name should remain as Yu Narukami.

EDIT: They are not going to change it because like I said before, the Atlus employe I talked about, said thath they are going to localize his name as Yu Narukami. -- Crok425 23:27, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

So basically, you're only changing it out of your own speculation (and where are you getting the idea that Labrys is the main character of Arena, anyway). Still, it's only the anime and Arena (which for some reason emphesizes the fact you can change the name in the console version) that uses that name. The problem with the Tatsuya argument is that the name has been used for every single P2 material from the very beginning. He-of-A-Thousand-Names does not have that excuse. That's why I'm weary about changing the name when not all of the material uses that name. CCMars 23:43, March 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, I changed it because someone got proof that they will be calling him "Yu Narukami" in Arena. Arena is canon to the series. Nothing you will say changes that. It's that simple. Anyway, about Labrys being the Main Character, well, all of Arena's plot that we know is about her. The P3 characters came to Inaba searching for her, the main setting of the game is the "dungeon" formed around her when she got thrown into the TV world, the main antagonist is her Shadow, and every Arcade ending has her gaining her Persona. Also, where are you getting the idea you can change his name in the console version? Because one of the two official sites still calls him "Protagonist"? That doesn't tell us anything!--Otherarrow 23:49, March 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * Found it! One of the Dengeki magazines had a mini-gude that again emphesised "Hero" and added "Yu Narukami" as an afterthought, despite past screenshots using "Yu Narukami" only. Other non-Arena articles also use "Hero". So, I don't think "Yu Narukami" is the The One Name That Rules Them All here. ^^; Besides, that's the thing: I don't know, and neither do you. For all we know, the two versions of Arena could be entirely different. So let's change it back for now, and then we'll debate on it once everything (Arena and Golden) is released. CCMars 23:57, March 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * As I said before, the Atlus employe said that they are going to localize his name as Yu Narukami, which is going to be his name in the console version, that is not going to change it, and as we said before, The Golden has nothing to do with it. As you said other non-Arena articles called him Hero, obviously, they are not going to call him Yu in a Persona 4: The Golden conference to make an example. -- Crok425 00:09, March 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * EDIT CONFLICT:::I'll be honest, I don't feel comfortable in moving it back to a "generic" name when a official, non-generic name for the character exists, and is in a canon game and all that hopdah. As for some magazine still calling him "Protagonist", well, he is primarily known as the protagonist of Persona 4, and as you said, it calls him Yu Narukami anyway. In the game, he is still called Yu Narukami. You saying that the home version of Arena will somehow "undo" that name and put him back to being a nameless protagonist is speculation, and one that is very likely to be false, as Atlus said they are calling him Yu Narukami in the localized version of the game. That was why the page was moved in the first place. I'd think it'd be easier for everyone to just leave it alone. I am not sure why you are trying to convince me though. I'm just one user. There are other users who oppose you trying to move it back. And, well, spin off or not, main character or not, Tamaki does set the standard for cases like this. If we move the P4 MC's page back to "Protagonist (Persona 4)", I'll move her page to "Protagonist (Shin Megami Tensei: if...)" just to be consistent.--Otherarrow 00:14, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

By the way...why is it what you say goes? I know I'm not the only one that opposed this. And why is what the actual main game and any other material (canon or non-canon) does less important than its spin-off? ...If also had more than one protagonist, and the one that did get a name became a minor character of a different spin-off with only hints at what happened in her game, so I'm not sure these two issues are the same. That's just me, though.
 * The question was whether they were going to use "Yuu" or "Yu" in localization. With the anime being hot at the moment and arcade games rarely (if ever) having name options, the use was pretty much inevitable. So, the console version may have Yu Narukami as a suggested name, a la every other game with a name-change option. Otherwise, why would they have "Yu Narukami" as an afterthought? Even so, this would be fine exept for one problem: there's more than one version of his name out there, so it's not exactly set in stone like Tatsuya is, and that's my problem with this article's title change. I hope that makes more sense.
 * Besides, you just kind of changed the article's name without any real debate. You just saw the sentence of what they're going to use at the Atlus site and went from your own interpretation of it. I'm not sure why it's so hard to wait until everything is released before changing anything anyway. CCMars 00:28, March 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, it kinda is set in stone, even HERE says that Persona 4: Arena is canon for good, Kazuhisa Wada, the director, said that. And I agree, there is a second name for him, and that's Souji Seta, but Atlus said that the manga is not canon, it's a manga adaptation of P4, but P4 Arena isn't a fighting game adaptation of P4. If... having two protagonist is not a different issue, since Persona 1 said that that Tamaki, the female one, was the canon protagonist of If... and that her canon name is Tamaki Uchida. I'm not trying to convince Otherarrow, I just want to prove the fact that his name is Yu Narukami now. It wasn't inevitable to put him Yu Narukami, if it was inevitable, then they would have named him Souji Seta, since far back when the game was announced, all the fans prefered Souji Seta as his name. Again, I state, I just want to prove the fact of his name. I didn't changed the article's name just because the sentence, the Atlus employe which is from ATLUS said that his name is localized as Yu Narukami, if you remember well, I didn't changed his name when Arena wasn't announced for NA, so it is a real debate. -- Crok425 00:36, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

-
 * EDIT CONFLICT:I wasn't the one who moved it! Check the history before you throw around your baseless accusations CCMars! I moved it back after someone else moved it without giving any reason for their move! Also, when Arena's official site first came out, I asked if we should move it, and everyone said that we should wait until we get it in English. And, look, we got it in English! (Sure, just clarification of how the name would be romanized, but it does confirm that in the English localization, they are using the name) I am not saying it should be "Yu Narukami" because I said it should. I never said that. I said that I support it being at Yu Narukami because that is the name given to him in Arena, which is canon to the series. Are you reading my posts at all? Also, we have seen nothing from the home version, so what you are saying is pretty much just you speculating based on advertisement. The same way you are not the only one who opposes the move, I am not the only one who supports it. Stop treating me like I'm the only one oppossing you. Honestly? You are starting to bother me. I've tried to just stop this politely, but you keep responding, and now you are getting rude about it.--Otherarrow 00:38, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

He's right, I'm the one who moved the article, and it's also true that everyone said to wait, even I said that. Sure, CCMars is speculating over if they are going to undo his name and made him be a nameless character, but of course I'm kind of speculating too because they just recently announce Arena, but it's a fact that his name is Yu Narukami now. -- Crok425 00:45, March 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Read again what I said. I'm not debating any canon. I don't care what's canon or what's not. The problem is Yu Narukami is not always the name used, plus he uses a different name in other official - canon or no - material. If's female protagonist never had another name other than Tamaki outside of that game (the first NA version of Persona does not count). P4's protagonist has. That the main website FOR ARENA, not to mention Dengenki's little booklet - ALSO FOR ARENA - puts an emphesis on "Hero" and adds "Yu Narukami" as an afterthought is strange to me. Golden (a port of the main game) and anything related to P4 outside the anime rarely - if ever - uses it.
 * tl;dr - This name is not completely set like Tamaki or Tatsuya. 
 * Besides, keep in mind the orignal game was NOT everyone's introduction to Persona 4, so it's no surpise they used Yu Narukami for the arcade version of Arena.
 * And once again, why is it your way or the highway here?


 * I apologize if I seem rude to you, Otherarrow, as that was not my intention. I was addressing both of you, not just you, so I should have written that better. Again, I apologize. However, you're not exactly listening to me either. I'm just not sure why we have to change anything based on sheer speculation. CCMars 00:59, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Not listening is not an excuse to be rude, besides, Otherarrow is kind of out in this discussion since it seems that he doesn't wants to be part of it, and believe me, I don't wanna be part of it either, because you are the one who is not listening. I'm not being rude with you CCMars, so stop using terms like everything as you say goes because it's not true, no one does that here. If I had done that, Great Mara, most of all, would have reverted it without a second thought, but he agreed on changing it, and do you think that one Atlus employe would make the decision on his own and not talk about with the head of the company? No one in a company is that arrogant, so it goes at how it is now. As I stated before, Souji Seta is non a canon name, Atlus said, but Yu Narukami is, again, Atlus said it. -- Crok425 01:06, March 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * EDIT CONFLICT:::Honestly? Because it's not speculation. It's not like we are guessing that his name is Yu Narukami in Arena. It pretty clearly shows that as his name in the game. That's the whole reason we even considered moving the page. Also, I will just say that I think you are putting too much weight into this Degenki thing, but that is just my opinion. And, well, I'll be blunt, I've been trying to hint this, but now I'm just going to say it outright: Stop talking about this on my talk page.. Seriously, this isn't getting anywhere, and you are getting rude and I am getting mad.--Otherarrow 01:11, March 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * A shesh... sorry about that, man. We'll follow the discussion in th Protagonist's talk page. -- Crok425 01:16, March 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't worry Crok, that was directed more at CCMars than you. But yes, this isn't the place for all of the discussion on this. The talk page is! I've said my bit.--Otherarrow 01:18, March 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * Otherarrow, I'll be glad to do so, and I apologize for bothering you. I am only answering you two. CCMars 01:20, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Ogun
Have you played Devil Survivor 2 or remember how his name is written in Strange Journey? Because I can't remember one instance where his name is written as Ogoun. Message 01:45, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I only recall him from Persona, where he is Ogun. Is Ogoun a fan translation thing or something? I'd move it.--Otherarrow 02:26, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it was another of one of Pinkie's little wonderful ideas but I wasn't sure so I wanted to double check. I'll go see if I can find a FAQ or something. UserGreatMara.pngge 02:48, March 21, 2012 (UTC)

Ultimate Navbox
I say keep it yellow. Also don't forget to add this link: http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Status_Changes_in_Persona_4:_Arena Zahlzeit 00:50, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

There isn't that good of a juxtaposition with the white and yellow. Maybe make the text red to match the title logo? Or will that be confusing because it'll look like a broken link? Well if it's that or if that looks ugly I guess black will do.

Photos
Could you delete ? I added it today but messed up (not a default picture) and added the correct one. Similarly, can you delete the low quality P4 anime pictures? Zahlzeit 14:33, March 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Great Mara already got to it. As for the anime pictures, I'd love to delete all of them, but I think the consensus was to keep them or something? Something like that.--Otherarrow 16:47, March 29, 2012 (UTC)

Oh you're right. He/she did. Great Mara is a fast bugger.

Anyway, I figured as much. I'm talking about the really low quality ones or just the more unprofessional ones though. A good example is this one of Chie. Looks like one of you guys got to it as I was typing. Nevermind. I'm going to try to clean up the gallery of the now-dead-links then. Zahlzeit 16:51, March 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I found an excuse to delete them. Most of them have really bad and uninformative filenames. Like, I think there was one of Narukami titled just "que". Que? Sadly, I had to delete what appeared to be info on a Elizabeth statue thing because the filename was all numbers, but rules are rules I guess.--Otherarrow 16:53, March 29, 2012 (UTC)

That's a really sneaky loop hole. In all seriousness, ? Augh. Zahlzeit 16:56, March 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I deleted all of that set either because they were misnamed (Most of them didn't even have Kanji in them) or because they were just low quality (and I think we have higher quality screenshots of most of these early episodes somewhere anyway)--Otherarrow 16:57, March 29, 2012 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be more deleted if it's for the reason of clearing low quality pictures? Like some of the Rise ones even have a lot of JPG artifacts. Zahlzeit 17:01, March 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm slugging through these as they come up on the "New Images" page. I'm pretty much going through them in reverse chronological order.--Otherarrow 17:03, March 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay. Thanks. Zahlzeit 17:05, March 29, 2012 (UTC)

Oh and delete any full-body images of Devil Survivor 2 characters that have a white background. I'll replace them all with their high res, transparent background ones soon. Zahlzeit 17:27, March 29, 2012 (UTC)

Appearances
IMAGINE is not a part of the main series. Also we need some way of deciding what we really want the appearances sections to look like because there's way too much differing opinions on the matter. Great Mara, and a lot of other people I've talked to, really prefer the chronological order but you seem to like grouping by series. Personally I'm with ordering chronologically unless a game is a direct sequel or remake of the other (Persona 2 duology, P3+P3FES+P3P, etc.)


 * According to the IMAGINE page it takes place between SMT and SMT II, which is why I've started placing it according to the format on my Sandbox page. Basically what series came first will have its sequels listed under it and will be listed in that order. I've got the write up for that format on my Sandbox but maybe we really should try to get everyone together to see if we can agree on a concrete policy for sections in the Manual of Style.


 * Also, I might be a bit before responding. I'm currently on my lunch break at work and have about 10 minutes until I have to get back to it. UserGreatMara.pngge 18:21, March 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * EDIT CONFLICT::That's understandable, though I do find it kinda bizarre when, for instance, a demon appears in both Devil Survivor and Devil Survivor 2, but there are a few games between the two entries, or when there is a lengthy gap between the SMTII entry and the SMTIII one. But maybe it's just me. As for IMAGINE, I heard somewhere that it was in continuity with SMT and SMT2, but eh, I can see why it wouldn't "count". Of course, which ever order we decide on, I'll be happy to go with. Of course, what would be a direct sequel? For example, the 4 (6, whatever) Persona games are in the same world and are in continuity with each other, but aside from a few references or cameos, are pretty much self contained. Would they be grouped together or split up? Sorry for the trouble.
 * EDIT:I am fine with the order proposed in Great Mara's sandbox page.--Otherarrow 18:24, March 29, 2012 (UTC)

A lot of the appearances sections are screwed up which is why it's like that. Also the lengthy gap between SMTII and SMTIII is because some people go pure chronological order. You make a good point about the sequel stuff though. I say go pure chronological to make things easy.

What is even the basis of Great Mara's Sandbox page? I can't make heads or tails out of it. Zahlzeit 18:31, March 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh I just remembered you guys are admins now. I think this might be worth putting as a poll .Zahlzeit 18:47, March 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer a forum, so we can discuss it with the other users, get some ideas we may not have thought of out there, that sort of thing. It's up to you guys though.--Otherarrow 18:49, March 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * How about both? Zahlzeit 19:04, March 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * We need to settle this pretty soon. I'm finding way too many pages with way too many Appearance styles and it's one of the first steps to improving these pages. Zahlzeit 22:27, March 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Did you guys make the forum page, or the poll, or whatever? I don't think that just asking the admins to fix it will help if users who are not the admins are the ones doing it differently.--Otherarrow 23:31, March 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm just a normal user and you guys are the admins, who pretty much set the rules if I'm not mistaken. I asked so we could finally settle on something and actually work towards arranging them properly and consistently. I just asked the SMT community I'm with on their opinion and it was mostly in favor of a pure chronological order. Zahlzeit 23:38, March 30, 2012 (UTC)

Deleting Pictures
Oh and next time you delete pictures, which is fine of course, please remember what the origin of the pictures are from and to clean them from the gallery they came from. Zahlzeit 02:26, March 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, sorry about that. I'll be sure to remember to do that next time.--Otherarrow 02:27, March 31, 2012 (UTC)

Request to Delete P4U Pictures
Could you delete and ? They're just screencaps of the site and just contain bio info which is already on the wiki anyway. Zahlzeit 02:00, April 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. Thanks for the heads up.--Otherarrow 02:01, April 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * Got another one. I don't think we REALLY need two pictures of the character select screen. The other one is fine since it shows off character portraits but this one is practically the same as the Naoto/Teddie one. Zahlzeit 02:04, April 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry. Just got another. This is that aforementioned character portraits screenshot but I just found out there was already a Kanji/Yukiko one that shows off the same thing but in better quality. Zahlzeit 02:09, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

Ariadne/Palladion
There is a Youtube video entitled "Persona 4: The Ultimate in Mayonaka Arena - Labrys Gameplay (part 2/2)" where the person playing is using Labrys in her Aigis alt color, with Ariadne as Palladion. In your edit summary you say Ariadne in this color looks nothing like it, but I respectfully disagree here and say that the Ariadne in that video is clearly colored after Palladion. Strain42 21:31, April 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * We have an image on the Wiki of Labrys and her persona in that palette. Try and tell me this looks like this.--Otherarrow 21:33, April 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * I actually posted that picture lol but that picture doesn't specify that that Ariadne goes with that Labrys. All I ask is that you please check out this video I mentioned (seen here) and then tell me that this Ariadne isn't colored after Palladion. Strain42 21:37, April 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * You are right. However, you uploaded a misleading and incorrect image. Why? Why did you do that? By your little screw up, you tricked the Wiki and all of it's followers into thinking that those palettes went together. Did you think it did? Or were you just uploading from somewhere else, without stopping to check your facts? Forgive me if this comes off as rude, but all this confusion is your fault. Don't do something stupid like that again, OK? I am actually kinda mad at you right now.--Otherarrow 21:43, April 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * It was not my intention to mislead or confuse anyone. Originally I uploaded that picture for one reason and one reason only. At the time, that was the only decent picture of Ariadne that anyone seemed to have, and I put it on the page since there was no other photo available on Ariadne's page. I never claimed that the two went together. I myself did not believe that they went together (In fact I thought I even posted it with a caption saying otherwise, but I could be mistaken) I simply uploaded it as a placeholder image until we had official artwork of Ariadne to take its place. I apologize for the confusion caused, but I do hope we can clear things up. Strain42 21:55, April 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * OK. Thanks. Well, the image is gone, and the mix up corrected. Sorry for getting mad and calling you an idiot. I admit, I acted more emotionally than I should. Thank you for your correction, and I hope I didn't just spoil your opinion of me or anything like that.--Otherarrow 21:59, April 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * Rather than creating a whole new post to waste your name, since it's a similar issue, I thought I would address it here. This is regarding Shadow Labrys though rather than Labrys. I'm not sure who informed you that Shadow Labrys' Persona color was Aigis, but as seen in this image. Shadow Labrys' number nine color more closely resembles Elly from P2, seen here and if you look at the chart for Asterius, the number 9 color looks like Nike, seen here I'm happy to edit the site when I see something is wrong, but I noticed that it keeps getting changed back, so I just wanted to inform. Thank you for your time. (98.94.48.105 23:39, July 25, 2012 (UTC))
 * Interesting. Because I have seen a video from the arcade version where Shadow Labrys had an Aigis palette and Asterius had a Pallas Athena palette. It seems this is a case where they changed the palettes around between the Arcade and Home versions. ...this may be a problem for us here at the wiki.--Otherarrow (talk) 23:44, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

Important P4U trivia please read

 * Yu is a reference to Ragna because they both use swords and slash upwards in one of their attacks.


 * Naoto is a reference to Baiken in GGXX because uhhh they both want to be guys at some point in the stories.


 * Aigis is a reference to Justice and Tager because there are clearly no robots in fighting games except for those guys

i am clearly competent and not pulling at strings
 * Heh. I admit, that made me smile.--Otherarrow 02:46, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

SMT2 Template Redesign
"I have no clue in what order I am putting the NPCs in though."

I'll ask people who know SMT2 about it later to figure out an order. Zahlzeit 21:52, April 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * You'd do that for me? Thanks. I admit, while I know the basic plot of SMT II, I don't know the details, so I don't know who comes in when and so on.--Otherarrow 02:46, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

Picture Removal Request: Nicaea
http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:Nicaea_B_ver..jpg

Pretty unprofessional with that logo at the bottom. I replaced it already.

Animation/Anime Merge (backup)
Hey Otherarrow, in case Mara can't pick this up, those two pages are on the wiki and they're exactly the same, would it be possible for you to merge them? Also, could the page Episode 29 - Sphinx don't let anyone control your heart. be deleted or something? Because it doesn't refer to any page in particular at all, like someone just put it here for no reason at all.

Also, I'll be making a page for the DDS OVA, you know, the one with Loki rape? That needs to be in the animation section. --BOXN 01:45, April 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well the novel had Loki rape too, technically. Don't worry, I'll take care of it.--Otherarrow 01:51, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

SMT2 Template
B-but I did! o_õ

Also, you weren't justifying your changes too, you know? >_>

Anyway, sorry then. So, here's the deal:

1) I think the way you are dividing the characters as "playable" and "unplayable" isn't really... fair. I mean, under the right circumstances, even Satan and Lucifer could become playable characters, so why not put them together with Hiroko and Beth? It's simple: because it's going to be weird as hell, that's why.

So I preferred the "main character/minor character" method because, frankly, that's the way it always were, even before I started updating the 'Shin Megami Tensei II'' pages. I don't really like changing'' things. I just add stuff.

2) If you are going to put all the non-playable characters from the game in the template, it's just going to become a huge mess. I mean, Haneda? Seriously? Putting him in the same category as YHVH for example... that's just wrong. That's why I didn't created any new pages for every minor character, and just decided to organize them all together in one place (the Shin Megami Tensei II page, characters section).

I'm not saying that you need to delete the pages of those characters that you (it was you, right?) created. I'm just saying that, you know, it's too irrelevant information. I suggest we exclude any character, save YHVH, that doesn't have an updated artwork for the Shin Megami Tensei II remake-- that's the only excuse I could find to myself to permit Red Bear to be in that template.

3) Some of the tags that you put on the "Terms" section don't even exist, and I doubt there is information enough about them for us make a stand-alone page for all of them. “The Colosseum" I was going to eventually describe in the Valhalla section of the Tokyo Millenium's page anyway; and the "Virtual Battler" could be inserted somewhere there, I think.

Also, the "Old Tokyo" should be a tag for Shin Megami Tensei I, not II. Unless you are referring to the "Underworld", which I would propose we do one of those two things:

a) Transform the name of the page from "Old Tokyo" to "Underworld", and extract the Underworld section from the Tokyo Millenium page, in order to do a new page.

or

b) Exclude "Old Tokyo" from the template.

Also, I don't really think the Cult of Gaea needs any mention here. They are obviously not as important to the plot as they were in the first game. Also, wouldn't Kuzuryu too be considered an unplayable character? His page can refer to him as a "super-weapon", but he IS technically a demon. Anyway, if we are going to put stuff as this in the template, then we might as well do it for Eden, the Pillars, the Dolls, you know where I'm getting at, right?

...

Nevertheless, I didn't knew you were trying to make the template in the best accordance to the ones from other games. I'm sorry. >:\

Still, as I said... it was ALWAYS like that, so why are you changing it just now that I started updating things anyway? It feels like you're just being mean about it. D:

Kuronekoekoeko 01:27, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * The SMTII template before was kinda...bad. No real organization to it at all, all of the characters just thrown in without any real rhyme or reason to them. If you notice, I did cave and put Lucifer, Satan, and Cerberus in with the human playables. As for putting minor NPCs like in with, say, YHVH, that is just how it falls. The other templates don't try to filter out NPCs according to importance. As for Old Tokyo, I'll change it to the Underground, and split that from Tokyo Millennium. It and Millennium aren't considered by the game to be the same place anyway, so I always thought lumping them together was odd.--Otherarrow 01:35, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Kuronekooekoeko, the template is made to fit the other templates. Also sure, they may be playable but they aren't playable and also have a major role on top of that. You could even say they're not the same exact demon like how there's more than one Jack Frost and such. There are a lot of holes in your argument besides that too.


 * Otherarrow. Couldn't get a proper order for the SMT2 list but someone said it's fine as is--the order I would assume. Just seperate the characters but keep them the same order. Also the characters that don't have pages don't have them for a reason. For example for one of the NPCs one person just said that she doesn't even have art or isn't significant at all. Zahlzeit 01:35, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * If you are talking about Anoon, I know she has art. I've seen it before. I think one of the remakes added it. Although the site where I found it seems to have gone down. If you are talking about Puck and mistaken him for a girl, well, OK fine. Puck was a punk anyway. As for the "some characters don't have pages because they don't need them." thing, Meraka is a fairly important NPC, and his relatively unimportant scientist buddy got an article over him. It seems to be more that people just haven't gotten around to making these articles.--Otherarrow 01:40, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * I reread a log of what he said. It was Haneda actually but since a page is already written for him, whatever. Secondly there was Oberon and Amaterasu since he said they didn't have any roles except for praising you for freeing them. Zahlzeit 01:47, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, removing Oberon and Amaterasu. Also, I confused Haneda for the other scientist guy (though I think someone did make an article for him.) Thanks for helping me out here.--Otherarrow 01:54, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but as you insisted, I'm putting everything and anything there.

And yes, they don't directly enter the party, but if that was a requirement, then I would have put every demon available in the game. The difference is that the Amatsukami clearly state that they will aid Aleph in battle if he wishes, which means that the demons you summon at the Jakyou Manor ARE the ones you just rescued from the sealed cave-- in other words, they are characters.

The same goes for Ishtar and Ashtar, which I just added.

... btw, that's the reason I just removed Oberon from the template.

The one who is the ruler of Shinjuku isn't necessary the same one you can fuse or find at dungeons, for example.
 * I'll be honest, I am getting the impression you are just trying to spite me at this point. Don't get personal. If they have to be fused, then they aren't playables. You don't have to fuse Lucifer, Satan, Cerberus, etc. That is the only reason I am letting them in. Otherwise, yes, as you said, we'd be letting in any demon in the game. Also, I think you still have to fuse Ishtar even after you split Astaroth. Also note that I never insisted on putting everything and anything. Now you are just putting words in my mouth.--Otherarrow 15:27, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

HUH?

Dude, I really ain't getting what judgement you are using to edit the tags here, seriously.

I just said: they are characters of the story, not just simple random encounters, so why not put them there? I'm trying to do things your way here, or I would just have edited it back the way it always where.

If they don't deserve to be considered playable character just because they have to be fused, that doesn't make any sense. If there can't be requirements for them to get into your party for they to be considered characters, than Satan and Lucifer also wouldn't count (since they are only playable if you are going for the law or chaos ending, respectively). I'm putting the demons there not because they're playable, but because they're playable characters. Isn't that's what this is all about?

. ..

And well, I didn't said you said that, that's just the conclusion I'm getting at here: create pages for everyone and everything, and putting them all into the template.

As I said, I don't really agree with you, but if we are going to do things this way, then we might as well do it right. o3o

But well, if you're getting the feelings this is going to become a discussion or something, then I might as well give up.

Tell you what, I'm just going to keep working at the main pages that already exists. Okay then? Okay. q
 * I axed Amaterasu and her ilk because people were commenting that she was too minor, more of a "hi and bye, oh, and don't forget that you can fuse me now" than a real character. Now that you bring it up, I would like to argue on if there is a difference between "player" and "playable". I noticed that the SMT1 and Nocturne templates only have a small number of characters under "player", basicly, the core humans and the companions, with a few exceptions like Pascal and Dante/Raidou, who are treated more as "human" allies rather than demons (they can't be put in the comp, they can't be fused or summoned, they don't eat MAG, etc). I am pretty sure that there are a few other demons who join automatically in those games, so why aren't they in there too? My guess is because, while they are "playable", they aren't "player". Am I correct? It seems I've been doing it wrong this whole time. As for the "they aren't just random encounters, so they count as characters" thing, well, so do bosses, and we aren't adding every boss to the template. Think of them like "Unique" demons in later games. There are only one of them, and you can thus only have only one of them (in games where you can have multiples of a demon of course), but they aren't really part of the plot, outside of maybe the events where you unlock the right to fuse them. It would be like adding the Heroes to the Devil Survivor 2 template, IMO.--Otherarrow 18:09, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * EDIT:I am sorry if I came off as hostile. I've been working on cleaning the template up, and while I have no problem with you disagreeing with me on how it works (discussion is good), I feel that you are getting rather belligerent and rude about it. I also feel that there may be some misunderstanding as well. I am sorry.--Otherarrow 18:35, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

Force and Wind Merging
Shouldn't we merge the Force and Wind Spell sections? They are practically the same thing just referred to by different names, right? Zahlzeit 21:02, April 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * In the first Persona, Force spells were a subtype of spells (consisting of Nuclear, Gravity, Electricity and Blast) that stood in opposition to the standard Element spells (Fire, Ice, Earth and Wind). So, yeah, Force has been used for something that isn't just renamed Wind. For the longest time, I thought that Wind being called Force was something the early games did, but apparently games as recent as Devil Survivor 2 uses it too?--Otherarrow 21:06, April 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * If Devil Survivor 2 follows Devil Survivor's system then yes. I'm playing around on Devil Survivor right now and wind spells are referred to as Force Spells. UserGreatMara.pngge 21:09, April 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, isn't that confusing? I thought that the Garu line has been categorized as "Wind" for some time now. Wonder why they went back to Force? Of course, I think some Force categories use the Zan line instead of the Garu line, and Zan was Blast in P1. So confusing!--Otherarrow 21:14, April 15, 2012 (UTC)

Yu Trivia
I don't know. It's not inaccurate and it is trivial knowledge. What are your thoughts? Zahlzeit 00:01, April 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * It seems like it really could be just a coincidence. I mean, Electro Speed doesn't seem like it's a intentional reference to Quick Attack, but rather an electric, speedy attack. Because Narukami/Izanagi is electric themed. Quick Attack is speedy, but not electric. I guess I will have to see the attack to be sure. I don't really like when people try to force something as a reference without being sure.--Otherarrow 00:13, April 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Good point. Lets leave it as you left it. Zahlzeit 00:27, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

Source for Marie
Do you mean for the part about online capabilities or for Marie being the one to explain/distribute them? Because there is really is online stuff in Golden now apparently. Zahlzeit 17:47, April 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Marie being the one linked to it. I don't doubt that there will be online stuff. As for Marie, all we know about her is that she exists, has ties to Igor, and shows up in the Velvet Room at some point for unknown reasons.--Otherarrow 18:36, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Deletion request of an old photo on the SJ Protagonist Page
. I just replaced it. Zahlzeit 20:57, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

SMT Template
Fellow editor asked what does MAG mean on the SMT template? And what exactly is NOA? We know that it's number of attacks but for pixie it says 1-7 although apparently it can never do more than one. Is this just incorrect information? Zahlzeit 14:29, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * I thino "Number of Attacks" actually stands for number of hits, like sometimes when you attack with some weapons, it hits multiple times in a single attack? Of course, it is possible that the pixie entry could just be wrong. As for MAG, it stands for Magnetite, and I think the MAG stat is how much MAG they consume with each step and I think how much is needed to summon them.--Otherarrow 14:34, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Number of Hits sounds pretty legit. Should I change the template? Zahlzeit 14:37, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Go ahead.--Otherarrow 14:47, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Common.css
Who has privledges to it? I'm trying to add class codes but I'm a normal user. Do I have to be an admin or do I need to be a sysop? Zahlzeit 19:37, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Honestly? I don't know! What do you need it for?--Otherarrow 19:39, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * I need it to add class codes, like I said. I made a gallery template as you can see in use here: Protagonist (Persona 3). The purpose is because the P3/P4 pages in particular, especially P4U's page, have HUGE galleries and this makes the page look cleaner. Class codes would allow me to actually add colors specific to the series (blue for P3, yellow for P4, etc.) just in case there needs to be more than one gallery on one page. I could always just make two gallery templates but that'd be kind of crazy--I'd rather edit the MediaWiki and add class codes instead. Zahlzeit 19:46, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I have no clue what class codes even are, so I think you should ask Bluer or someone else with more know how about this sorta thing. Sorry that I can't be of help here.--Otherarrow 19:49, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Is he even active? Well I guess it's worth a shot. Zahlzeit 19:51, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Found it: http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css. We should be able to edit it but I have no idea how to manipulate things using it. UserGreatMara.pngge 20:27, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, it seems that I can edit it, though I have no clue what to do though.--Otherarrow 20:30, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * I knew where it was but I mean I can't edit it. I could tell you guys what to put in but I tend to need to play around with things a lot as you have already seen from my editing style. Zahlzeit 21:06, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Kyuyaku spites
I got the Kyuyaku sprites from this site= http://f46.aaacafe.ne.jp/~aqul/aton/

I think they have nearly all the sprites from the older SMT games.

Shiizuko 19:47, April 18, 2012 (UTC)Shiizuko
 * Wonderful! Thanks a bunch!--Otherarrow 19:49, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

List of Megami Ibunroku Persona Bosses
I'm not really in a position to add anything to this page at the moment, so I was wondering what your opinion was. Should I add formatting sections so people like that anon can fill it in appropriately or delete the page until someone is ready to seriously work on it? Message 02:02, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * There aren't that many bosses, so I can probably fill it out using the P3 bosses page as a reference. However, I think that there is no real in game list of bosses, so I have to go by memory.--Otherarrow 02:37, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Picture Deletion Request
These pictures have already been replaced with higher res versions.

x

x

x

Zahlzeit 02:59, April 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * The three that I left link straight to the image, not the file page, so I can't delete them. Could you repost the links to those images?--Otherarrow 03:04, April 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:AquansSMTIII.png
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:11-SMT010.jpg
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:12-yoma_apsaras.jpg
 * 16:24, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Admin Status
Is there a way you guys can do it? I'm getting itchy on wanting to collapse those galleries. -- Zahlzeit 18:50, April 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * I am pretty sure only Bureaucrats can do it. Sorry.--Otherarrow 19:48, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

List of removed gallery images
Hi, while uploading hires Nocturne demon compendium images, I removed several older images that became redundant. Here is the list of them:

I was told to send this list to you as per Zahlzeit's instructions. Thanks.

McPwned 04:54, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Alright, I took care of it. Thanks for the heads up!--Otherarrow 05:02, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Icon Deletion Request
I thought the old icons on the front page were washed out, badly cropped, off center, or just plain low quality. I hence replaced them with better ones. The old ones need deleting now:

Old Merchandise Icon: BoxMPMerchandise.PNG

Old Animation Icon: BoxMPAnimation.PNG

Failed Animation Icon: Animation_Icon_(P4A_Kanji).png

Old Locations Icon: BoxMPLocations.PNG

Old Music Icon: BoxMPAlbums.PNG

Old Characters Icon: BoxMPCharacters.PNG

Old Demons Icon: BoxMPDemons.PNG

Old Enemies Icon: BoxMPEnemies.PNG

Old Items Icon: BoxMPItems.PNG

Old Mechanics Icon: BoxMPMechanics.PNG

Old Games Icon: BoxMPGames.PNG

Failed Series Icon: ShinMegamiTenseiLogo.png

-- Zahlzeit 06:30, April 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * I think you could have just uploaded new versions of the files bot okay xD MinatoHikari 05:35, April 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * It replaces faster this way, in my opinion. -- Zahlzeit 05:36, April 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, cool icons =D These days I was thinking that the wiki needed a little "update" on the design =] keep up the good work ^^ MinatoHikari 05:41, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Deleted. Message 06:40, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Thousand Year Kingdom
Er... "official"?

There isn't an "official" term. The game wasn't translated, remember?

Still, I preffer 'Thousand Year Kingdom', since is the term that Aeon Genesis went with in it's translation of the game, and the term that Re-Miel uses in his own translation.

... The japanese term can be translated as both, so technicaly neither are wrong. I just use the most common term for the sake of it: if you don't want to confuse people, how do you think they are going to react if we use one term in the wikia, and they see another in the game itself? They will naturaly think they are two different things.

I think we should stay as faithful as we can to what we currently have as an english translation.

... Still, gonna leave it as it is if you don't agree with me. It's up to you. @@
 * I want to say the term comes up in IMAGINE. IMAGINE was officially translated. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the other games mention it somewhere as well, like in that time stream dungeon part in the first Raidou game? I doubt the wiki editors just pulled it out of their ass.--Otherarrow 16:40, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Deletion Request
Could you go to Great Mara's talk page and delete the photos that I sent to him? He's probably in class now. -- Zahlzeit 18:10, April 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * I took care of it.--Otherarrow 18:15, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Space Marine's Eyes
They are; you can notice it really quickly if you put a picture of all of the Kaneko protagonists and compare them. I guess droopy is not the right word for it but I don't know what is. -- Zahlzeit 19:48, April 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * I presumed the change in the eyes was more because of a change in facial structure. Most of Kaneko's characters tend to have more younger, slender faces, while the Marine has a different type of facial structure, more "built" for lack of a better term. He also appears to be older than the other protagonists Kaneko has designed by a noticeable margin. But yeah, there is a difference there, but I would call it droopy. Weary maybe, implying that he has been fighting for a while or the like?--Otherarrow 22:09, April 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Weary isn't it but I think you're on the ball for the facial structure thing. I don't know what to write about that though. -- Zahlzeit 22:18, April 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Also if you can try to work on the Soul Hackers navigation box. If you can't do that at least suggest what colors I should use for the Soul Hackers character infoboxes. -- Zahlzeit 22:21, April 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * I know pretty much nothing about Soul Hackers, sorry. As for the colors, I'm thinking a blue to match the title logo?--Otherarrow 23:27, April 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll figure out something. Also can you delete this picture?
 * Both her sprite and portrait are on her page so it's kind of redundant to have this around. -- Zahlzeit 01:42, April 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done!--Otherarrow 01:54, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Image Deletion Request
Old Music Icon:

Old 3DS Remake Icon:

Both have been replaced. -- Zahlzeit 05:09, April 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done!--Otherarrow 12:50, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Stub pages
I personally believe that people are more likely to find or edit a page that already exists than one that does not exist. That is why I created all those stub pages so people would notice the lack of information and fill it in.
 * You put no effort in making those pages at all. That won't make people want to edit the pages. That will make people think that the wiki is just lazy and is boosting the page count by making junk pages. The people who have the info about those pages can make those pages. Allow me to be blunt: If you can't even muster up the effort to make the most bare bone of pages, don't make pages at all. You have to actually make page for people to edit it, and these blank pages aren't really pages.--Otherarrow 15:29, April 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * Adding onto this to whomever may be reading, this goes the same for sections in pages. You could at least write something like in the old Space Marine Design section, "He wears a Demonica"--at the very least. Otherwise for all of those random DeSur2 story sections that keep getting added or whatever, if they're deleted, they're deleted for a reason. People like BOXN and I know how to add sections when we want to contribute information so it's fine. -- Zahlzeit 16:51, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Re: Demon Painter
Actually I realized that after I made the change but I guess it didn't hurt is all. Whatever works I guess. -- Zahlzeit 14:19, April 29, 2012 (UTC)

"Trolling"
They're not really trolling as much as bluntly stating their opinion, I apologize on their behalf especially since I know them and nearly all of the vandalizers on this wiki anyway. -- Zahlzeit 03:33, April 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * "Luvil isn't trolling, he's just shitposting". Fixed. I am being very blunt, but I even suggested a way for Minako to proof-read her work before she posts it on the wiki. --BOXN 03:43, April 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * You are fine I guess. Sorry if I overreacted.--Otherarrow 12:18, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

Labrys in P4
She never shows up in P4, even in The Golden so yes, the P4 template does not belong there at all. People who think so are probably getting mixed up by the screenshots of the Arena storymode which look like as if she's in The Golden or something. -- Zahlzeit 17:49, April 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's what I thought. Well, the Arena template I made and put there should help be done with that.--Otherarrow 17:59, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

Force/Wind/etc.
Yeah everyone I talked to said to leave it as different elements as they are clearly not the same thing. -- Zahlzeit 23:48, April 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Alright, so we split Zan off the Wind page then? Of course, the thing is, what do we do with the Persona Force type, which seems to be a more vague thing exclusive to the first Persona. I'll figure something out. Thanks for all your help.--Otherarrow 00:44, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

sorry for editing your post.

i just wanted to know why SJ doesn`t fit in the timeline.

ican understand nocturne but not sj.
 * Well for one, Strange Journey has humanity first learning about the existence of demons, and it is set in a modern/futuristic setting...One that the main timeline features in for all of two minutes before everything gets nuked to all hell. If Strange Journey is set in 2010, then it can't be set in the world of SMTI, where everything is nuked in 199X. Also, Mara calls back to Nocturne, which in turn calls back to SMTII, so although they are each set in different worlds from each other and I/II, Nocturne and Strange Journey are set later on the metaphysical timeline. If that makes sense.--Otherarrow 02:37, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

New MoS
Please review it and before actually changing it, give me feedback. I probably have forgotten something or missed something as a lack of sleep. When I wake up, I will go over it again and revise anything I see wonky and include Great Mara's and your opinions or discuss anything that needs discussing.


 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Megami_Tensei_Wiki:Manual_of_Style

Please and thank you. -- Zahlzeit 09:04, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Re: Persona 1 Character Images.
The main pictures for characters should be:


 * 1) of the highest quality
 * 2) transparent backgrounds, if any exists
 * 3) and most recent, simply and if only because it usually fulfills point 1

That's the criteria I've been using, and it's reasonable, isn't it? I'll replace Yukino's eventually too. So yes, we should be replacing Aigis P3 art with Arena art--I think Soejima drew her better in there anyway. The same goes for remake art for PSP Persona 1, but I didn't think any existed?

And yes, this affects all other main pics. This is in the new MoS but I'm not sure if I was clear since I wrote it kind of late. -- Zahlzeit 02:17, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

Oh but for example the P4 characters and P3 characters that Crok made transparent backgrounds should stay. Transparent background'd images should have the highest priority to be candidates for the main picture. -- Zahlzeit 02:24, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

One more thing, do you know the exact nickname the P1 protagonist was given in the PSP remake of Persona 1? I think we should name it similar to the Demi-fiend article complete with the template. -- Zahlzeit 02:25, May 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * I looked over the new MoS, but I didn't see anything about how old or new the images are. Maybe I was just not looking hard enough. But yeah, I can understand your point. As for the Persona 1 PSP art, it does exist, though I think most of it is Soejima (I assume it was Soejima. It doesn't seem to be Kaneko's style) redrawing the Kaneko art, pose and all. The reason I brought it up is mostly that some of the character designs have noticeably changed between games, and I was wondering if that would be a issue or not. As for the P1 guy, he has no default name of any kind, though I think in Eternal Punishment, he is credited as "Boy with Earring" and I think his Japanese nickname is "Pierced Ear Boy".--Otherarrow 02:29, May 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * The original P2 art was Soejima too, just imitating Kaneko's art I'm pretty sure. As for the design issue, elaborate? I don't see why this is a problem to be perfectly honest, I'm not trying to jab you or anything. I heard about Boy with Earring as his name in EP too but I was trying to figure out if he had a PSP P1 remake nickname since that would probably the one that is going to be used in PSP EP but I guess not. "Boy with Earring" it is. Also, can you delete this image?
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:Strike_Team_Guy.png
 * I just realized it was just Tyler when he was an unnamed soldier, so it's practically a duplicate of another image that's on the wiki. -- Zahlzeit 02:45, May 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, I am pretty sure that the original P2 art was Kaneko, while Soejima did the portraits and such. Kaneko was the primary artist for the whole series at the time. As for the design issue, look at, say, Yukino in Persona 1 and Yukino in Persona 2. While you can still tell they are the same person, she has a noticeably different outfit and hair style. All of the returning P1 characters are like this. But I guess it's not an issue.--Otherarrow 03:05, May 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well yeah, as I was saying, what is the problem if that character looks different? And what makes you think the original P2 art was Kaneko? Just because the art was old, there is black lipstick, and long eyelashes doesn't necessarily mean it's Kaneko or else the new EP PSP artwork done by Doi was actually Kaneko too. The thing about the P2 art and stuff is that it really feels stiff among other things that don't make it seem like Kaneko. -- Zahlzeit 03:20, May 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * I mean I'm pretty sure he did the concept design and stuff but Soejima was the one who actually drew the characters. -- Zahlzeit 03:21, May 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * I am fairy certain that the only things Soejima drew for the PSX versions were the portraits, though I want to say that he did most of the character designing. But Kaneko is credited as "Main Character Designer" for those versions, so trying to argue that the art credited to him wasn't him is kinda, well, absurd. Not to mention it matches his style more than Soejima. I mean, even the P1 PSP art, which I want to say was Soejima redrawing Kaneko's art, doesn't look like Kaneko's style. If it was Soejima all along, we'd notice.--Otherarrow 13:32, May 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll take your word for it. Also I need these sprite deleted.
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:Dionysus2.png
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:Doppelganger.png
 * Already replaced them with better quality images. -- Zahlzeit 14:09, May 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done.--Otherarrow 14:24, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

Sprite Deletion Request
-- Zahlzeit 16:22, May 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:Smtifsfc_druj.gif
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:SMTifSFC_bushyasta.gif
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:259.jpg

-- Zahlzeit 02:05, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

New MoS: 05/04
Alright so I editted the MoS again as I said I would. I just fixed typos, streamlined some things, clarified, and weeded out redundant details that were stated more than once throughout the article. You can easily see what was changed/added by looking at the history but it wasn't really anything that we didn't know already.

The one thing that was added that is completely new is:
 * No fan art allowed except for the front page slider if there is no official art of acceptable quality and similar situations.

This was mostly in context of stuff like Devil Survivor 2 and IMAGINE, the former of which still has a stretched slider image. Is this alright? -- Zahlzeit 19:47, May 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it looks right to me. Good job.--Otherarrow 19:58, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

....
Looks like that just happened... Although I don't think it should have. Only reason I did that in the first place was because someone's been stalking me and other Nukapedia members around Wikia and raising a ruckus in chat and such because we won't allow weapon speculation there. I'll go see about getting that worked out on CC. Message 01:35, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

Picture Deletion Request
Can we at least delete these on the Magatsu Izanagi page? Pretty low quality and if not for that at least the first one really deserves it since it has a logo from a streaming site.
 * File:Killed.png
 * File:Magatsu_Izanagi.png

-- Zahlzeit 03:52, May 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * Deleted. UserGreatMara.pngge 03:57, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

Catherine
How about we just delete all of the character pages, aside from Vincent's (since he appears in Persona 3), Trisha's (since it's merged with Ishtar), and make the actual Catherine (game) page more brief and succinct? I'm thinking routing the character links on that page to the Catherine Wiki since the pages on this wiki are very stubby as is and are better maintained on their wiki, of course aside from the occasional wacky character allusion trivia from the same editors that do it on this wiki. I would have preferred for them to merge into us but I don't really think they'd want that anyway.

I'll work on revamping the Catherine (game) page once you give me the go ahead, in response to this message. -- Zahlzeit 06:49, May 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I personally consider Catherine as part of the overall series, but if you think this is the best action, then go ahead.--Otherarrow 12:17, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

Deletion Queries

 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:Vincent_Brooks.jpg

-- Zahlzeit 02:59, May 6, 2012 (UTC)


 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Erica_Anderson
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Tobias_%22Toby%22_Nebbins
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Boss
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Katherine_McBride
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Catherine_(Character)
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Voice_(Catherine)
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Orlando_Haddick
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Jonathan_%22Johnny%22_Ariga

Don't forget to delete the photos on the associated pages too. Thanks in advance. -- Zahlzeit 04:01, May 6, 2012 (UTC)


 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:SMT_Fusion.gif

-- Zahlzeit 18:07, May 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:Three_Wise_Men.jpg

-- Zahlzeit 21:59, May 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:YuuNarukamiP4A.JPG
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:675px-Screen_shot_2011-10-06_at_4_42_46_PM.png
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:Yu_remark_that_was_an_accident..jpg
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:Yu_first_time_charge_of_his_Persona.jpg
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:Yu_using_the_persona_fusion_process.jpg
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:Yu_is_save_by_Yosuke.jpg
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:Persona4_14_11.jpg
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:Yu_was_about_to_throw_Namatame_into_the_Tv_world.jpg

Horrible Quality, logos from streaming sites, taken from screenshots on the PSP and/or are now orphaned. -- Zahlzeit 21:51, May 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done.--Otherarrow 21:58, May 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:Yu_arrive_at_Inaba.jpg
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:Not_at_Night.png
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:persona4-15-yuu-chie-friendship-romance-conversation.jpg
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:Yu_stopped_by_Teddie_perventing_to_go_tv_world_alone.jpg

Same reasoning as the last ones plus some of these are kind of stupid and serve no purpose. -- Zahlzeit 13:03, May 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:Yukiko_resolve.jpg
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:Yukiko_comferred_Chie_after_Nanako_died.jpg
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:400px-Persona_4_Animation_Yukiko.png
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:Yukiko_hugged_her_other_self.jpg
 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:Yukiko_fainted.png

Oh also if you're feeling bored I'd love it if you checked the Yu and Yukiko pages and compressed/paraphrased them some more. I couldn't get to all of it since I never played Persona 4 myself. Of course if you don't feel like it, that's fine too. Deleting these files is good enough for me. -- Zahlzeit 13:25, May 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. As for Narukami's page, I have just this to say: Is there any reason the section on the True Ending is the longest part of the plot segment? Kinda odd.--Otherarrow 13:32, May 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * No there isn't at all which is why I had to ask someone else to cut it down. In general the ending section seem too verbose. They should be a little more brief and have information that is more central and relevant to the protagonist himself. -- Zahlzeit 13:42, May 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll try to simplify it. Yukiko's page looks alright though.--Otherarrow 13:45, May 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Also Minako just removed this so delete it too. -- Zahlzeit 13:52, May 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. I trimmed the True Ending section on Narukami's page. I can get that one being a bit meaty, as the True Ending is probably the only part of the game where Narukami does things independent of the others. The other sections still need more meat though.--Otherarrow 13:57, May 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Alright thanks and yeah, I can't do anything about it right now so it's up to you and whoever else has played the game. -- Zahlzeit 14:01, May 10, 2012 (UTC)

"Spells" Pages
Shouldn't it be changed to "Skills"? It's more catch-all than spells since, even though the attacks are magic the users are not always mages/spell casters and are just summoning magic attacks through other means like Space Marine using his gun and et cetera. -- Zahlzeit 19:24, May 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it probably should. I've just been using "Spells" since that is how it was before I got here. Sorry. Do you think we should move?--Otherarrow 19:26, May 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah it should definitely be called skills, it's been called that way a lot in SMT games too rather than spells, such as Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor 2. -- Zahlzeit 19:28, May 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey, not to sound pushy, but you want to help me out? There are a lot of pages to move and links to fix.--Otherarrow 19:32, May 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * I moved all of them that I know of. I'm going to take a break...--Otherarrow 20:03, May 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry. I've been busy with work (in real life) nonstop. -- Zahlzeit 04:16, May 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, it's OK then. Sorry if I was coming off as pushy.--Otherarrow 04:31, May 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * You aren't, and no need to apologize every time you make honest requests, nothing wrong with it of course. -- Zahlzeit 05:02, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

Deletion Queries

 * Rise_Kujikawa/Rise/9999999999.jpg
 * File:9999999999.jpg

-- Zahlzeit 22:04, May 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * BLAMMO'd. UserGreatMara.pngge 23:08, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

Videos
Does uploading videos the way I did upload it to the wiki, or does it stream externally? Was testing that out. -- Zahlzeit 03:20, May 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah OK. Still, I had no way of knowing. Just looked like irrelevent spam to me. I wouldn't know, as I don't use the video uploader thing (In fact, I kinda disapprove of videos on wikis in general, but that is nether here or there.) Sorry for any trouble.--Otherarrow 03:29, May 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Didn't answer my question but figured out anyway, and I was going to ask you to delete it a second later anyway so nice job being on the ball. No need to apologize. -- Zahlzeit 04:05, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

Deletion Queries

 * http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/File:Slider-Persona_2_Eternal_Punishment.png

-- Zahlzeit 16:25, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

Re: Soul Hackers Slider
Yeah, I've considered it and it crops badly and stuff among other things. Also it's not technically art of the remake either so there's that. For now we'll just leave it off until we get good art to use as the slider. -- Zahlzeit 18:08, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

Re:Page names.
You're the one who change it without a reason. The beginning of the article you didn't say anything about the name but suddenly change the name without even writing a reason why. Also what's wrong with it? It sound acceptable to me why do you think its sloppy? I think the name you changed into is the sloppy one. --Cococrash11 23:44, June 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think anything that goes "(Word in Parenthesis)'s Whatever" looks sloppy and kinda bleck to say. And I wasn't the one who originally moved the page. If you think the current names are wrong, say so, but don't just move it back to the equally (if not more so) wrong names and except not to get any flack for it.--Otherarrow 00:00, June 3, 2012 (UTC)

Deleting Unused Images
These are unused (orphaned) images that simply have no place, are overshadowed by other images that precedence, are duplicates, are fanart, are of horrible quality, are cropped from bad screenshots, are bad screenshots period, etc. Delete them at your own pace, no one is rushing you. Please use the tags on the appropriate images deleted to give me an idea of when you give you more to delete.

Sorry that I can't help you or do it myself. I'm still not an admin/bureaucrat and all. Thanks in advance. -- Zahlzeit 07:22, June 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd rather just remove the links. I'll post back here when I am done with a batch. Like now.--Otherarrow 15:53, June 2, 2012 (UTC)

That's cool too. -- Zahlzeit 21:27, June 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done.--Otherarrow 21:52, June 2, 2012 (UTC)

Alright here's some more. Some of these are dupes before you say anything. -- Zahlzeit 22:21, June 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done.--Otherarrow 22:56, June 2, 2012 (UTC)

-- Zahlzeit 11:36, June 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done.--Otherarrow 15:48, June 3, 2012 (UTC)

Don't judge people by the language they use, seriously. The people I'm around all the time and myself use nigger all the time or we don't mind it nor do we really bat an eyelash to it and still contribute to the wiki to great extent (ex. BOXN, Yafusa, what not). -- Zahlzeit 14:24, June 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * ...Which is why I told him that I wouldn't block him for saying it the first time, I just said it was unaccaptable (I don't care if you otherwise decent guys use it. It's still a racial slur and it's still offensive). The fact that he ignored it and told me to eat shit kinda clued me in that his intentions weren't exactly benevolent. Did I make the wrong choice?--Otherarrow 14:28, June 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't want to say you were completely in the wrong but you might have. Like I said, the people I usually talk to on a daily basis talk like that and even I do and we don't really use the word "nigger" in a derogatory word as much as it might offend you. -- Zahlzeit 14:34, June 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Either way, I'm sorry if I stepped out of line.--Otherarrow 14:35, June 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * It's alright, you probably didn't know. Also remember what the legal burden of proof is. You can accuse all you want but you haven't got anything to back it up--I'm not saying you're wrong for accusing that article of being pasteurized but right now you're just talking out of your ass. -- Zahlzeit 14:38, June 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * ...You are probably right. I am probably just talking out my ass. Sorry for me being stupid as shit.--Otherarrow 14:42, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

-- Zahlzeit 15:15, June 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. Why do the Gaian's wear buckets on their heads anyway? Is it a Japanese cultural thing I am not getting?--Otherarrow 15:27, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

They're not really buckets as much as really simple helmets of old. As for a Japanese cultural thing, I don't really know for sure. Finally got a Soul Hackers slider by the way. -- Zahlzeit 15:29, June 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * I see. Thanks. Also, great, now Mary can stare at me when I visit this site as well. Kidding aside, I think it will work until we get a better image. (If we get one).--Otherarrow 15:31, June 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Shit, I fixed the link...not noticing it was the one you wanted me to delete. Sorry sorry. Derp on my end again.--Otherarrow 15:33, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

-- Zahlzeit 18:23, June 8, 2012 (UTC)

-- Zahlzeit 04:44, June 11, 2012 (UTC)

-- Zahlzeit 06:23, June 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done.--Otherarrow 12:19, June 11, 2012 (UTC)

-- Zahlzeit 15:33, June 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done.--Otherarrow 15:42, June 11, 2012 (UTC)

-- Zahlzeit 14:44, June 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done.--Otherarrow 15:08, June 12, 2012 (UTC)

Snowmanie's little requests
Hello. Seeing as you're the one who has taken it upon himself to clean up most refuge I leave behind I was wondering if you could delete a couple of more categories that I've left hollow? I've added them all here for now.

A question too: Do categories with no entries and without any created page for them ever stop giving themselves as suggestions when adding categories? I've been having this problem with several categories that no longer exsist (just try start typing them when adding Categories to a page). How does the whole suggested categories thing work anyway? There were several categories that I added yesterday that only started showing up as auto-fill today so do they need to be approved by an admin or something or is whatever "list" the auto-fill pulls suggestions from only updated a few times a day automatically? Thanks in advance for taking your time with me. -- Snowmanie 20:36, June 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't really know about the suggested links thing. I think it takes a while for the catche to clear and for the wiki to "catch up" with the deleted pages and added pages and such.--Otherarrow 21:57, June 12, 2012 (UTC)

Category:Candidates_for_deletion -- Snowmanie 01:37, June 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you.--Otherarrow 01:43, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

Prime Persona
Are you sure it's optional? I know mutation in general is but I remember the Prime Persona specifically were not optional if you fulfilled the requirements as you initiate a scene with Philemon. Actually mutation doesn't even fit at all since you keep both Persona unlike Jun's who actually do mutate, and are optional. -- Zahlzeit 00:55, June 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * According to what I've read on this very wiki, the mutations are basically a way to get the Prime Personas in the PSP version if you missed out on the proper way to get them. The mutation is another way to get them. I can't check this, since I've already returned the originals.--Otherarrow 00:58, June 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well I have no idea now. -- Zahlzeit 01:05, June 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * I hope you just read that Maia trivia because I just figured it out and it blew my mind. Also someone said that that never happened in the PSX version so.. take that as you will. -- Zahlzeit 01:12, June 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * I haven't read it as a thing in any guides, but I guess it sounds like a plausible thing to be added in the PSP version. Also, yeah, that trivia's pretty cool. More of Atlus showing their mythology smarts. --Bettafishrule2579 01:34, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

Deletion Query
-- Zahlzeit 03:55, June 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done.--Otherarrow 14:55, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

Also when you see any instances of "---" in the P2IS Persona templates, please replace with "-". -- Zahlzeit
 * Will do, thanks. Also, done.--Otherarrow 15:12, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

-- Zahlzeit 18:07, June 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done.--Otherarrow 18:21, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

Adachi
His Arcana IS Pierrot if I can recall, which is reversed Fool. It just transforms into Lust. -- Zahlzeit 02:07, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually I'm not even sure about that too, I'd personally want to leave it blank. -- Zahlzeit 02:17, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Pierrot isn't a real Arcana. The only Google results I could find for "Pierrot Arcana" just linked back to buzz about The Golden. (Meanwhile, most of the results for Lust Arcana was about the Crowley Strength.) I don't think it so much "transforms" into Lust as it was always Lust, but the game tries to "trick" you into thinking it was Pierrot, the same way the game tries to trick you into thinking Adachi is harmless, when he is actually the killer.--Otherarrow 02:53, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not but it's reversed fool to mirror the protagonist and there was actually a screenshot where it said that Pierrot actually transformed into Lust. That's INSANELY insightful though. -- Zahlzeit 03:08, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * My guess is that it is actually the MC's, and thus the players, viewpoint. At first, he saw Adachi as, well, a Fool. Maybe a literal fool, maybe just someone like himself. Then something happens during this particular rank and the MC/player (Well, anyone who hasn't played P4 before) sees a bit of who Adachi really is. I guess we won't know for sure until we actually know what happens in the link. I am curious, does it say in Engrish and all that it transformed, or is this what people are translating?--Otherarrow 03:30, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Translating which is why I haven't added it yet. Have to be skeptic of everything until there's hard proof, ja? -- Zahlzeit 03:43, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

Magatsu Izanagi Purseowner
Let me link you the images from a JPs Vita, it's legitimate information. Or should I put the pictures on his page? --BOXN 23:23, June 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * No reason you can't do both. Of course, the very concept that Magatsu Izanagi is fuseable seems kinda wrong to me somehow. Like if there was some way to fuse Reverse Apollo in Innocent Sin or something.--Otherarrow 00:47, June 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Pics are on his page, and I understand that, but Atlus is putting as much into that rehash as possible. --BOXN 01:45, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

Lust Arcana sources
You wanted some source on them right? Here List for the Personae: http://i.imgur.com/1TmrN.jpg Dialogue where Pierrot changes into Lust (Desire is what the second purple Kanji reads): http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5ojwpbNYY1r3gyt0o2_1280.jpg

So that list of Personae was legitimate. Why am I even doing this. --BOXN 07:19, June 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * OK. Thanks. Sorry for the trouble. I guess since these people just put up stuff without attempting to actually verify it, it just causes problems for the rest of us. Again, sorry for bothering you.--Otherarrow 14:36, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

Picture deletion
Hello, can you please delete this?
 * No problem.--Otherarrow 17:05, June 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks! (and sorry, I keep forgetting to do that for some reason) Couchbiker 17:52, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

Yosuga was a Lawful path
It has elements of Chaos but ultimately Yosuga is a path that accepts God's power and authority. As such, it's ultimately a lawful route. The angels follow Chiaki for that reason. It's a hierarchy system based on principles of the strongest. All three 'Reason' endings were Lawful paths because you're creating a Millenium Kingdom like God wants you to. Only Neutral, Bad End, and True Demon Ending were against Law. The Truthful Knight 18:44, June 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Law isn't just about accepting God, otherwise, the Law path in SMT2 would be Chaotic, as it goes against God and his plans. Also note that the whole reason He puts world's through this cycle is in hopes that one day, someone will have a Reason that matches up with his views. (Shijima comes close, but that seems to be Law as in stillness as opposed to Law as in complete obedience to God). If they all were what he wants, then he wouldn't be doing it in the first place, as he would have gotten what he wanted with the first go round. Also note that none of the Reasons actually creates a Millennium Kingdom (Again, Shijima comes close). I think you've completely missed the point of the Reasons. The Reasons each represent the three alignments, Shijima for Law, Yosuga for Chaos and Musubi for Neutrality, at their very worst, and the fact that Law demons are siding with the Chaos Reason and vice versa is meant to show that, deep down, Law and Chaos aren't as different as Lucifer and God want you to believe. Also, "hierarchy system based on principles of the strongest" is one of the defining characteristics of the Chaos alignment.--Otherarrow 18:55, June 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * You're just insisting on your own interpretation of it. I'm saying it's Lawful because it's what God himself desires. They're all different ways to create a Millenium Kingdom. They're referred to as such. God doesn't care for any specific cycle, he just keeps re-introducing the Conception and re-creating the world in various ways throughout different worlds. Lucifer and Lady explain that to you. It's so the Lawful Gods they champion can have their views created. Musubi is in no way neutral. The ending itself depicts a grave and shows Isamu not caring about killing himself. My interpretation was that 'living in your own world' is no different than being dead to other people. That's not neutral. Neutral would be helping humanity like the Neutral ending where you restore the world. Yosuga may not seem lawful but it's basically like Yamato's ending of Devil Survivor 2. Lawful means for a chaotic conclusion. It is still, however, Lawful by nature. The Hierarchal system is also part of the Messian organization. It's even right there in the beginning explanation on the Wiki. I didn't even touch that. Chaos wouldn't have a hierarchy. That wouldn't be chaotic by virtue. The Angels joined Chiaki because despite the 'strongest are rulers' motto, it still requires a hierarchy and it still pursues Kagutsuchi's desire to reshape the world. Law denounces anything that goes against God such as SMT1 Law Hero's speech about 'Power without God is evil'. God, however, is always the focal reason despite the semantics of the Law argument. The Truthful Knight 19:29, June 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, Neutrality in several games, especially recently, is more about individuality and free choice than Balance (though both interpretations are about rejecting absolute Law or absolute Chaos, but for different reasons), and Musubi takes that to it's logical extreme, no one cares about anyone else because they are too busy trying to live in their own world. And Chaos is all about hierarchy. Ever seen the organization of Lucifer and the other demon lords like Beelzebub and Astaroth and such? Heck, in Nocturne itself, you have the hierarchy of Fiends and how the Demifiend fights his way up it. Again, one of the points of Nocturne, even if a subtle one is how the three alignments, when you get down to it, aren't that different, and when you actually look at it, Lucifer is just as much a hypocrite as YHVH. He preaches Chaos, yet enforces a Law-esque power structure among his ranks with himself at the top calling all the shots. The Neutral Ending in Nocturne as little to do with the Neutral Alignment itself, and is more about just returning things to the way they were, as a world of extreme Law, extreme Chaos, or extreme Neutrality would just lead to disaster. And the Millennium Kingdom is specifically, a thousand year kingdom where only God's chosen live, where everyone mindlessly worships God forever. None of the reasons in Nocturne actually do this. (Shijima comes close, though they have nothing to do with God and want a Law world for the sake of Nirvana) What Lucifer and the Lady in Black explains is that God's goal is to end up with a world where the Millennium Kingdom can be created, and that is why he puts world after world through the Conception in hopes that one day, someone will have a Reason that completely matches up with his ideals. The worlds created by the reasons in Nocturne would probably have to end and go through a new Conception too, as they aren't exactly what God wants. Also, you forget that at the point where he says that, the Law Hero was a radical who was seen as unworthy of being the Messiah in the Messians' eyes if you take the Law route (with the MC being preferred instead)--Otherarrow 19:44, June 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * And either way, I could use your "you are just insisting on your own interpretation" against you as well. You view all the Reasons as Law, despite one of them being blatantly Chaos based and the other being an extreme view of one of the forms of Neutrality, simply because of the method. I view them as the three alignments taken to the extreme, regardless of the method. However, since that is just out interpretations, it doesn't belong in the articles. (Well, the bit about the Reasons being based on the alignments is already in the articles, but denying that would be just...well, denial)--Otherarrow 19:57, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

Musubi doesn't do that at all. Have you even seen or played through the ending? Isamu kills himself and leaves it to you. The endings themselves were just giving added character development and leaving the Kingdom created open to interpretation. Nowhere has Chaos specified Hierarchy. In fact, the demons in the Amala Labyrinth all state or imply they willingly follow Lucifer freely. We don't know what the reasons do because the game ends before the created reason takes shape. It's left to interpretation on purpose. The MC is always preferred in the organization he joins. And yes, people know they won't last. That's why the kingdoms are all only a thousand years. God's 'chosen' are whoever Kagutsuchi deems them to be in Nocturne after you beat him while upholding a Reason.

And no, I'm saying they're Law because they are Reason philosophies and that makes them Lawful by virtue. They're following God's plan (Kagutsuchi's in this case). Denial of all Reasons is Lucifer's or Neutral path. Lawful Angels are in Yosuga for that reason so while the philosophy might seem Chaotic, it's really not. Apart from that, Gozu-Tennoh's structure of how 'the strongest get privileges' is by a trial-based gladiator-like battle of strength. So it still follows a lawful process of an otherwise chaotic philosophy.

Edit: Whoops, I think I messed-up the page a bit. Sorry about that. >_>The Truthful Knight 20:13, June 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * And that is where we differ. You say it's Lawful simply because it follows God's Plan. Well, what choice do they have? That is how the Vortex World works. You seem to forget, the Reasons and their leaders aren't like the Demifiend, they don't have access to all the options that the Demifiend has, they don't have the Amala Labyrinth and Lucifer and his scheming or the Fiends and their little hierarchy to fight through. All they have are Kagutsuchi and the Reasons. The thing is about Alignment is that it isn't about who you follow, but what you believe. You can be Chaos and still oppose Lucifer, believing that you are mightier than him and thus deserve to rule over him, or be Law and oppose God, believing that He is unjust and deserves to be overthrown (AKA, the Law route in SMTII). I think that your "Oh, they are following God's PlanTM so they are instantly Law, even if the actual philosophy they preach is blatantly Chaos or Neutral inspired." is pretty narrow minded and, well, missing the point. And as for your arguing about Musubi, at one point you said Musubi is "living in your own world", a Reason of solitude and isolation then deny it when I explain how that is an exaggeration of one form of Neutrality, the Alignment of personal freedom to make your own choices, not to be swayed by Chaos or Law or any other outside powers. Everyone is too busy being individuals, living in their own individual worlds with their own individual lives unswayed by the opinions of others, but at the cost of they don't care about anyone else, because they aren't part of their world. That is pretty much Neutrality taken to a negative extreme. The Reasons are the three alignments taken to negative extremes. It doesn't matter if they are using God's Plan, Lucifer's Plan, Mara's Plan, Jack Frost's Plan, or whatever to reach their goal. And I still argue that the angels being with Yosuga isn't a sign that Yosuga is "truly" lawful, but that when you get right down to it, Law and Chaos tend to look rather similar when you bloat and exaggerate them. It's possible that the angels don't notice that they are following a Chaotic Reason for that reason. (oh ho ho) But this is getting nowhere, so, allow me to be blunt, stop responding to my page. As fun as it is to argue philosophy with you, we aren't getting anywhere.--Otherarrow 21:21, June 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * The problem here seems to be that you're confusing SMT Law-Neutral-Chaos for Law-Neutral-Chaos of general series like Dungeons and Dragons roleplay. Following God was always the paramount point of all law-aligned demons and people throughout the SMT games. I also can infer that you did NOT see the Musubi ending or else you would understand exactly why it's not at all Neutral in terms of SMT neutrality. If you want to discuss this on my talk page instead then feel free. The Truthful Knight 03:49, June 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's because Law-Neutral-Chaos IS like general series like DnD. SMT just happens to associate most angels with Law and everyone else but Chaos but that doesn't mean Law = god and angels strictly. I mean Baphomet is a Law demon. -- Zahlzeit 03:58, June 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * EDIT CONFLICT (but I respect what Zahlzeit added, thanks): Except Law without God exists in SMT. That was pretty much the whole purpose of SMTII's Law route. You know, that thing I kept mentioning over and over and over? Satan, Gabriel and Aleph pretty much decide that God had crossed the line and had committed the ultimate sin, so they (well, Aleph and Satan, Gabriel just cheerleaders) take him out and created a world of Law without him (and the ending implies it is at least kinda decent. While SMT2 has a blatant Chaos bias, it at least makes the Law and Neutral endings at least somewhat happy endings). And you made a point of saying how the Nocturne Reason endings are left up to interpretation, then keep saying repeatably how my interpretation is wrong? Hypocrite much? And SMT neutrality isn't exactly a consistent thing. Sometimes it's Balance (OK, let's be honest, I can only think of SMT1 that treated this as such), some times it's free will to make your own choices and live how you will without demons or angels breathing down your neck. Musubi is a pretty much the later taken to the negative extreme. Everyone lives in their own little world, with no one to force them to live in any other way, at the cost of not caring about anyone else because no one else matters/is there. At least, that is how I interpreted the Reason. And talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. You refuse to even acknowledge that someone may think differently than you. Not everyone will agree with you. Deal with it. And you continued to pester me with your BS after I basically told you to go away and leave me alone.--Otherarrow 04:13, June 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * EDIT: Sorry if that came off as rude, but, I'll be honest, and sorry if this comes off as offensive The Truthful Knight, but you are kinda starting to annoy me.--Otherarrow 04:35, June 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * Instead of deleting peoples messages because you find them 'annoying', perhaps you should stop taking video game discussions so seriously and relax a little. The Truthful Knight 05:52, June 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * You are one to talk Mr. "Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong and I will continue to pester them about it until they admit that I am right". BTW, I personally think you are still incorrect. Freedom is one of the things about Chaos, but at its extreme, freedom is sacrificed so that the strong may rule over the weak. Survival of the fittest is at the heart of the Chaos way, and that means the weak will be wiped out so that the strong can live. There is no freedom in that. And, for the last time, stop pestering me over this crap. There is "taking a game so seriously" and then there is just being an annoying little twit about.--Otherarrow 05:57, June 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * ....Um, if you don't want an argument countered then just don't talk about the argument. You're basically saying "No, the game is like THIS and if you disagree with me then you're annoying me!". Jeez... I thought we were just having a discussion at random times like at a forum, not some flame war... The Truthful Knight 06:01, June 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Except I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. In fact, I tried to get across several times that I respected your opinion, but thought it was wrong and explained why. It wasn't that you disagreed with me that annoyed me. It's how you tried to force your view on me even after I pretty much said I didn't want to go on with it. It's as if you had to have the last word. I'll admit, I wasn't very happy to get a message from this Wiki, and instead of something important, it was just you continuing to argue.--Otherarrow 06:11, June 21, 2012 (UTC)

Gallery
To add, putting it in chronological order helps so the reader can see a progression in terms of design. -- Zahlzeit 05:12, June 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * I guess my main problem is with the Kyuuyaku stuff, as they tend to derive their designs from the MT/MTII designs, even when the games released around the same time use the SMT designs. (For example, Kyuuyaku Hecate seems to be more of a evolution of the MT1 design than following from the widely different SMT design.) On unrelated, pointless note, I kinda like Kyuuyaku Hecate...--Otherarrow 05:15, June 21, 2012 (UTC)

First Nekomata design
So this post (kinda NSFW) shows the progression of Nekomata's design. But what game did the first pic come from? I'm betting it was a really early one...--Bettafishrule2579 05:34, June 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * I want to say SMT, as it doesn't match the rather different MTII Nekomata design. (Or her simple MT1 design, but Kaneko didn't come on until MTII)--Otherarrow 05:41, June 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I was guessing SMT 1 too, but I kinda want to be sure... Also, should I name it "NekomataSMT1art" or something? --Bettafishrule2579 06:03, June 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * That will do I guess.--Otherarrow 06:13, June 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Alright, cool. Thanks. :) --Bettafishrule2579 06:22, June 21, 2012 (UTC)

-- Zahlzeit 05:46, June 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done.--Otherarrow 05:48, June 21, 2012 (UTC)

Marie design
Sorry about the editing note, I thought you could read the playful tone in it, but I forgot that tone doesn't transcribe well over the internet. I just put that because you're always asked for source IIRC. --BOXN 21:31, June 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, no problem.--Otherarrow 21:42, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

Amaterasu
Yes, she was in NINE as a summonable demon and she actually had a 3D model of her original Kaneko design.. and then later they made Nocturne using a generic design instead of using the Kaneko design or even reusing the NINE model (why?). -- Zahlzeit 05:08, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

-- Zahlzeit 06:42, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. Also, if they had a 3D Amaterasu model ready, why didn't they use it in Nocturne, instead using that strange guy Amaterasu thing? If it clashed with the style, couldn't they just remake it? Ah well.--Otherarrow 14:30, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's exactly what I thought. I'd like to hear what crazy reason they have for not doing so. -- Zahlzeit
 * Done. Also, deleting all these images has taught me something: The Persona 4 anime looks kinda awful. Everything looks really moldy and doughy.--Otherarrow 15:24, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah the animation quality is horrible. -- Zahlzeit 17:03, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done.--Otherarrow 18:03, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes. I forgot her name but she keeps uploading the images to the wiki without even putting them on pages too. -- Zahlzeit 18:14, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Great, so we got someone who is reuploading images I already deleted, and then just doesn't do anything with them? Man, what the hell? Also, done.--Otherarrow 18:20, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

-- Zahlzeit 22:57, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done.--Otherarrow 23:38, June 26, 2012 (UTC)

-- Zahlzeit 00:48, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. Also, I noticed two things: There are a lot of pictures of Chie for some reason and a lot of these anime screen shots have overly descriptive filenames to counteract the fact that on their own, they don't illustrate anything. Blech.--Otherarrow 01:22, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it's because she seems very animated, figuratively and literally, in the anime. Also yeah, it sucks. Blame Minako22 and the others. -- Zahlzeit 01:36, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. Also, I am pretty sure I've deleted more unused Persona 4 anime screenshots than there exists other images on the wiki. And there is still more, isn't there?--Otherarrow 02:02, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Less than twenty I think then we can really get cracking on these unused photos. Speaking of which, could you make a page for the Tranquil Idol using this picture? I can handle cleaning it up format wise after you've made it. -- Zahlzeit 02:12, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I've made the page here, but I haven't added any stats or anything, mostly because I don't know what they are, what moves she has, and so on. Persona 3 doesn't exactly have a Shadow Bestiary (as nice as that would be). Sorry.--Otherarrow 02:26, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's good enough, thanks. -- Zahlzeit 02:27, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done.--Otherarrow 03:04, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

-- Zahlzeit 03:36, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done.--Otherarrow 03:50, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

Starting to get into the greyzone where there are pictures that are actually used but listed there erroneously. -- Zahlzeit 04:01, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think I found any in that list, but most of it was more P4 anime stuff.--Otherarrow 04:17, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah I know, I'm just saying that now I'm in prickly territory is all. Almost finished-ish. -- Zahlzeit 04:24, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah OK. Done.--Otherarrow 04:29, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

Video module
Have you been able to find any way to set restrictions on it? Message 04:06, June 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * I didn't know I could. I've just been deleting them as they come in just in case. Was this the wrong action?--Otherarrow 04:15, June 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * No, I'm more concerned about some anon finding it and deciding it would be a fun toy. Although I also just noticed that all the videos seem to have been directly uploaded to the wiki. UserGreatMara.pngge 04:19, June 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think anons can upload files, but they can easily just make an account to do so I guess. I am not sure how this video uploading thing works in all honesty.--Otherarrow 04:25, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

-- Zahlzeit 05:48, June 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done.--Otherarrow 14:07, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

Gallery Formatting
Yeah I'm starting to think you were right. Kyūyaku Megami Tensei designs in the gallery should be next to the Megami Tensei ones, as they are not so much as redesigns as they are updated designs or designs that have more detail simply because of the 16-bit spriting. -- Zahlzeit 02:32, July 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. So should I move the Kyuyaku images next to the MT and MTII ones when I come across them?--Otherarrow 02:55, July 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, last in the order of Megami Tensei images. Everything else should be chronological order, even remake pictures (like P3 and P3P Loki) unless the designs are exactly the same or just updated in this case. -- Zahlzeit 02:57, July 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * So, in other words, it'd be MT, MTII, SMT, SMTII, SMT:if... KMT, etc, unless the image in one game happens to be a update of an older design, then it goes with the older design? (In this case, it would be MT, KMT (MT), MTII, KMT (MTII), SMT, SMTII, SMT:if..., and so on) Or am I misunderstanding?--Otherarrow 03:04, July 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes. That's correct. -- Zahlzeit 03:14, July 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, I take that back. Lets just make KMT always after their respective MT pictures. I can forsee this becoming a topic of much debate and subjectivity and it's better if we just make it uniform. -- Zahlzeit 03:15, July 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * Forgive me if I am being dumb/not understanding, but would it be MT, KMT (MT1), MTII, KMT (MTII), except in cases like Baal where the Kyuuyaku design for MT1 is just a recolor of the Kyuukayu MT2 sprite? Or MT, MTII, KMT like I've been doing?--Otherarrow 03:24, July 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * The latter. MT, MTII, KMT (both of them). -- Zahlzeit 03:30, July 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * Alright. I get it now. Thanks.--Otherarrow 03:34, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

Didn't realize this was already ripped. Need a delete. -- Zahlzeit 05:01, July 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done.--Otherarrow 05:13, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

-- Zahlzeit 06:02, July 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. Also, Lilim isn't Lilith, so what the heck was up with that file naming? Eh, it doesn't matter.--Otherarrow 14:49, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

-- Zahlzeit 18:17, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

-- Zahlzeit 18:44, July 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done.--Otherarrow 19:37, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

-- Zahlzeit 19:47, July 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done--Otherarrow 19:57, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

-- Zahlzeit 22:15, July 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done.--Otherarrow 22:34, July 3, 2012 (UTC)

-- Zahlzeit 00:47, July 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done.--Otherarrow 00:59, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

-- Zahlzeit 01:07, July 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done!--Otherarrow 01:08, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

-- Zahlzeit 01:38, July 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done--Otherarrow 02:13, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

-- Zahlzeit 16:35, July 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * It says Water Crown is still being used. You want me to remove and delete it?--Otherarrow 17:08, July 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes. -- Zahlzeit 17:13, July 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, done.--Otherarrow 17:16, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the help on the tarot pages. I was actually going to divvy up the work but whatever. -- Zahlzeit 21:33, July 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, OK. Well, I had time to do it so I got it done, I suppose.--Otherarrow 22:00, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

Re:Golden Garbage.
It's no problem if you understand what I mean. -- Zahlzeit 04:44, July 6, 2012 (UTC)

How on earth this was left undeleted since Sepetember 2011 is beyond me. -- Zahlzeit 17:04, July 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * My guess? It wasn't linked to anything, and I think only Bluer was admin at the time.--Otherarrow 18:38, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

Nevermind. Sending you links soon. -- Zahlzeit 05:23, July 10, 2012 (UTC)

Did you delete all of the other old Tarot pictures or something? -- Zahlzeit 06:05, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * No, why? Are they gone?--Otherarrow (talk) 13:42, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * -- Zahlzeit 14:15, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done.--Otherarrow (talk) 14:24, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

Uh, actually I found them now but I don't know what to do with them (don't delete them yet). I noticed they're all slightly different than the new ones. Are the new ones based off of the P4 tarot cards? -- Zahlzeit 14:29, July 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * The P4 ones are exactly the same as the P3 ones. Where did you get the new ones anyway? Regardless, I'd probably just put them in the gallery with the P2 ones.--Otherarrow (talk) 14:50, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Good idea but we just deleted the Fool one. Do we even know where this A1GIS user found these? -- Zahlzeit 14:59, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * I am not sure. Possibly ripped from the game itself? Where did you find yours? Also, I restored the Fool.--Otherarrow (talk) 15:14, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * It seems like it but I would have thought that she found it somewhere, pre-ripped rather than her ripping it herself. Also I just found mine on Mediafire. Where's the new, restored Fool? -- Zahlzeit 15:28, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Wait, you just found them? How do we know they aren't fan made (or rather, fan remade, since they are based on the real things)? BTW the restored Fool is here--Otherarrow (talk) 15:30, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure they aren't from the game themselves but are actually well scanned versions of the real life P3 Tarot Cards, I just can't remember what specific game Atlus sent them but I'm sure of that much at least. Also that link still says that the Fool card is deleted. -- Zahlzeit 15:46, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, well that makes sense then. Since they have the Aeon and the Minor Tarot it wasn't from vanilla P3. Maybe a special version of FES or P3P? I dunno. Anyway, I did restore the file, I don't know why it isn't showing up. This whole thing is getting messed up.--Otherarrow (talk) 15:57, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Since we are not deleting those Tarots, I removed the links.--Otherarrow (talk) 16:30, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

« Zahlzeit 17:45, July 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done.--Otherarrow (talk) 17:50, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

Regarding your removal of information from Marie- Here's a bunch of sources, and just a suggestion but shouldn't you maybe play the game before accusing people who actually have of making things up and removing all their edits? Or at least make some effort to check before doing so?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYzlLHO6Qbw

http://www26.atwiki.jp/kwskp4/m/pages/463.html?guid=on

http://i48.tinypic.com/2w3dcuw.jpg

175.134.44.29 09:51, July 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * ...A bunch of Japanese neither of us can read. Smooth. I'd expect the very least a tumbler or blog entry of someone who'd fan translated it. Also, as the section header shows, we are pretty much sick of people putting up every The Golden rumor and trying to pass it off as fact without a source. The burden of proof falls on you, the person adding this new and outlandish information, not us. Forgive me for my rudeness, but I did nothing wrong. When a new user comes in posting outlandish claims with no proof, what else was I to think except that they were bullshitting?--Otherarrow (talk) 14:32, July 31, 2012 (UTC)

Know where I can get a translation for this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSPRpEXQgyI&amp;feature=relmfu

It's in the Raidou only version of Nocturne. I'm not sure if you've been asked this before but I was hoping someone who knew Japanese would be able to translate this. It appears after the TDE in Nocturne. The Truthful Knight (talk) 03:50, August 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oooh. Interesting find. Unfortunately, I don't know anyone who knows Japanese who can translate it for you (If I did, a lot of the questions that get brought up on the wiki would be resolved). Sorry.--Otherarrow (talk) 14:39, August 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, thanks anyway. I emailed Aeon genesis but I don't think he'll get back to me. The Truthful Knight (talk) 18:03, August 6, 2012 (UTC)

ME's voice actor
Someone wanted to ask you a question: how did you know that ME's voice actor was Jin Yamanoi? « Zahlzeit 07:34, August 17, 2012 (UTC) Bloo-D (talk) 09:01, August 17, 2012 (UTC) « Zahlzeit 16:56, August 17, 2012 (UTC) « Zahlzeit 07:45, August 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yamanoi voiced Nyarlathotep in Japan, so maybe he guessed.
 * Actually, I don't recall where I saw it. I could have sworn that I removed it. Anyway, the Announcer and the ME (who share at least English voice actors) are uncredited to my knowledge.--Otherarrow (talk) 15:43, August 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * I guess I'll check out the credits in P4U in my spare time to listen in on his voice in the story mode. His announcer voice is really familiar to me.
 * The announcer in the Japanese version is Fumihiko Tachiki. He was the VA for Kratos in Tales of Symphonia.ImmaculateSucessor (talk) 07:17, August 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is exactly who I was talking about. As for ME's actual voice, I haven't heard it yet.

Complaint
Hey, what's up with deleting my page on steel gigas? I gave some really good advice. Archangel uses hama and "Gosh, I just defeated a strong enemy." I gave more information like they have a 5% chance of spawning. And if you're starting out you should expect a hardcore battle because red ones are stronger.

Can you reconsider?

Francis

82.68.211.198 10:49, September 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * The page had no info at all aside from "have archangel use hama". Where does the Gigas show up? What level is it at? What are it's moves? What is it's arcana? Just saying "you can use hama to kill it" doesn't help anyone.--Otherarrow (talk) 12:44, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

Re:Design and Personality II
Maybe I finish it, maybe I don't, or maybe it's because some scums (not someone from this wiki I assure you) said something that makes sense which leads me to what I think at September 30 that copying and pasting is much better then what I did originally. --Cococrash11 (talk) 06:27, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Also not having the section there is a waste to me it's not like it was vandalizing, at least not on the same level as those vandalizing idiots. I mean sooner or later someone will fill it with information whether I put the Section there or not and if someone knows the information great everybody wins. So I can't understand why you are strongly against it. --Cococrash11 (talk) 06:27, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * If you can actually put something there, I have no problem. With the SMT and SMT2 articles, you were literally just cutting one part of the prexisting article and pasting it under the Personality header. Most of the time, it wasn't personality at all.--Otherarrow (talk) 07:37, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Michael/TheAnswer
I checked the resistances after the anon made the second edit but the stats for vanilla P3 and FES The Journey matched up to Arthenillus' (sp?) FAQs on GameFAQs. I do wonder why they'd switch back to his normal P3 resistances in The Answer but to date I've never found a FAQ listing Persona stats for the Answer. Message 05:43, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah OK. That is strange. Well, thanks.--Otherarrow (talk) 05:45, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

Elizabeth Tips?
Can you give me a clue, best equipment and best persona at p3fes to defeat elizabeth without orpheus telos?Persona Lover (talk) 10:46, October 29, 2012 (UTC)

Images
And to be honest I wouldn't really care if they did come after me, I'd rather have both wikis be held to the exact same standard without the favoritism than this bullcrap. As it is, I'd probably be starting to look for hosting options where we could actually host all the MT related content without having to worry about it.

In the meantime, could I get you input on the Heat Knife talk page? I think it should be deleted but I'm not sure what you or Zahl think. Great Mara (talk) 00:52, November 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * Even so, I don't think you need to be snapping at Sannse about it. As for Heat Knife, we usually don't have pages for weapons unless they have some importance. For example, the Hinokagutsuchi. This thing seems to be just a standard piece of equipment with no real unique reasons why it should be considered important. So let's axe it or redirect it to the main list.--Otherarrow (talk) 00:57, November 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry that I'm late to the party but I agree with Otherarrow, as long as we put that information into the main SJ weapons list. « Zahlzeit 09:05, November 8, 2012 (UTC)

Re:Location articles
Generally for pages that aren't of characters like mechanics or locations, there's just going to be an Appearances section like the one you linked and not a seperate Profile and Appearance section, similar to the Final Fantasy wikia and others. « Zahlzeit 00:17, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Question
How should the link for voice actors in articles should be? With the Code –  or with the wikipedia template? -- Crok425 (talk) 11:37, January 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * I honestly don't know. I want to say we've been using the Wikipedia template mostly.--Otherarrow (talk) 11:41, January 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * A lot of articles have the template and it's easier to use. Using it make users available to enter to code mode and visual mode and (for me at least) it's easier to use visual mode, so I don't see any problem using the template inside another template and those articles don't have any issues. Is it allowed to use the templates then? -- Crok425 (talk) 11:54, January 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * I dunno what you are talking about.--Otherarrow (talk) 12:07, January 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * In a nut shell, the Wikia visual mode (it requires to be enabled in your preference) fails to render preview when a template (template:w) is used within another template (template:SMTIV Character) so Crok425 demands to give up the first template in order to enable the visual mode in certain article. But I can't allow it because (1) the inability to render the preview in such circumstance is Wikia's problem instead of ours. (2) Wiki is essentially edited by the source code and most editors have already used to it. It is irrational to ask the other editors to comply with the rather minority who uses only visual mode. -- Inpursuit (talk) 12:35, January 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * How are you so sure it's the minority? I already said I'm not demanding anything, I'm just saying it's easier and whether you have problems with it I haven't experienced anything of those issues so why do we have to do what you prefer? -- Crok425 (talk) 12:40, January 9, 2013 (UTC)

Persona 4 Golden
I was just wondering if you have or know anyone here who has Persona 4 Golden. I'm asking because I keep seeing a lot of resistances and stats shifted around on P4 Shadow stats on Location pages and unsure about whether or not those changes should be made. I know they keep trying to shift Shadow Yukiko's and Charming Prince's stats to P4G instead of making a new boss section on the Yukiko's Castle page. Great Mara (talk) 18:23, January 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I don't have The Golden, but I have heard that they changed up all the resistances and such. I'd just revert the changes and make a new section for The Golden.--Otherarrow (talk) 18:29, January 11, 2013 (UTC)

Hazama's Chapter
I got it from here. Admittedly, it's not extremely detailed, but I was considering looking for more info some other time.--76.191.145.36 20:55, February 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * From what I recall, Akira fuses with Amon so he can gain more power, just like Chaos Hero in SMT1. He later becomes more demonic-looking as the hero advances through the story. I never heard of Amon being Akira, or whatever you're talking about.--76.191.145.36 21:16, February 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * So what you are saying is...Akira fuses with Amon...and turns out looking exactly like Amon. Yeah, what? I am not saying that Akira is the mythical god Amon. I am saying that Akira fuses with a demon and renames himself Amon. The if... character Amon is not the common encounter demon Amon. We have art of the demon Akira explicitly labeled "Amon". Here. I will link it for you.--Otherarrow (talk) 21:21, February 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * EDIT:Unless, of course, the demon Akira fuses with isn't the figure named "Amon" in that picture, in which case, color me confused.--Otherarrow (talk) 21:27, February 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * I didn't imply that at all. What I'm saying is that Akira, as a human, fuses with Amon, who looks nothing like demon Akira (and in fact looks more like Amon from the Dictionnaire Infernal), and becomes a human-demon hybrid. Also, why would he rename himself "Amon"? How about you show your source?--76.191.145.36 21:32, February 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * I already did. I linked a picture of the Demon Akira explicitly labeled as Amon. (Also, Hazama is there too). So what seems to be going on is that we have two Amons. The original demon Amon, and then Akira post-merger with said demon. How strange. So I guess this does answer the question of the Hazama Chapter character (it's probably Amon classic, not Akira!Amon) but it doesn't answer the question of Akira!Amon.--Otherarrow (talk) 21:39, February 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * There isn't a second Amon, Amon doesn't transform into Akira, and Akira never renames himself Amon. Basing info on a single picture isn't exactly a good idea, either.--76.191.145.36 21:46, February 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, at least I provided a source. You have just said "no you are wrong" and I've just kinda taken your word for it. However, one picture as it may be, it's still official confirmation that, in some capacity, the demon Akira is somehow called Amon. Also, no one said Amon transformed into Akira. What are you smoking? Hell, I am not even saying that Akira and Amon are the same thing. I am saying that, as far as I can tell based on the Akira!Amon and the video I've seen, Akira renames himself Amon after fusing with Amon. Maybe Amon takes over his body? Who knows? I am just trying to figure this out, and you have been nothing but rude about it. Seriously man. Chill.--Otherarrow (talk) 21:51, February 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not intoxicated, "Akira!Amon" implies that Amon takes on the form of Akira. I don't intend to be rude either, and wouldn't saying "no you are wrong" make me seem ruder?--76.191.145.36 21:58, February 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, in that case, this is just miscommunication. I mean Akira!Amon as in "Amon who is Akira". Not how I directly compared it to "Amon classic" which I probably should have labeled Demon!Amon or the like. As for the "no you are wrong" thing, while you haven't used those exact words, you kinda have been just telling me how wrong I am without providing any back up, and then brushed aside my source as if it was nothing. If you had countered it with a source of your own, I probably wouldn't be so sore about it. I do believe that there is a demon Amon who matches the description given in the Dictionnaire Infernal, and that Akira fuses with it, as you have told me. It's the resulting demon Akira, and what it is named if anything special, that I am trying to figure out. And instead of helping me, I feel you are just telling me how wrong I am. If that makes sense.--Otherarrow (talk) 22:07, February 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, turns out you're right. According to this, Akira gets killed by Amon so he can possess his body, and due to Amon's possession he gains a demonic appearance. Sorry for putting you through this ordeal, I guess.--76.191.145.36 22:21, February 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait, really? Huh. Also, you don't have to apologize. Looking back, I was the one being extremely rude here. I should be apologizing to you. I am sorry.--Otherarrow (talk) 22:23, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

Dark Hero's Route
So after going through sites related to the original Famicom games and its remake, I've just noticed that they do not mention the ability to stay with your friend in Kyuyaku Megami Tensei. I believe you were the one who first brought it up, saying that you learned it from a friend. So do you think you can get evidence of the Dark Hero's path from him?
 * Unfortunately, I no long know how to access this person, but I have heard that it was possible before that. From what I've heard, in KMT, and just KMT, if you reject the Partner, instead of her attacking her she just leaves, and the Friend stays in the party. However, this locks you on the bad ending.--Otherarrow (talk) 00:30, March 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, well I guess I'll just try to look through more sites.--76.191.145.36 01:01, March 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry that I can't be much help.--Otherarrow (talk) 17:05, March 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * I checked this one (sadly incomplete; it stops after the event at Tokyo Tower) English walkthrough and it confirms the alternate route's existence.--63.249.110.97 23:09, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

The site notice you keep mentioning
As far as I can tell the notice only shows up when using Contribute -> Add a photo. It didn't show up for me when adding things directly to a page. Great Mara (talk) 03:18, March 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * The site notice which I spoke of shows up all the time until you dismiss it, at least in Monobook. I am not sure how it works in Oasis, but I'd assume the same way.--Otherarrow (talk) 03:22, March 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know then. I've never seen it before while editing pages or in the test file I just loaded and deleted. The only notice I see on the site is when going to Contribute and selecting Add a Photo. Great Mara (talk) 03:25, March 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think we are talking about two different things. The site notice can be edited by any admin, there is no reason why it should only come up during the time you said. For the record, I am talking about the thing on the top of the page in Monobook that starts with "File maintenance is taking place"--Otherarrow (talk) 03:38, March 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * I just switched to Monobook for a couple of minutes. That's the only way I can see the notice you're talking about. Great Mara (talk) 03:42, March 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * It doesn't show up in Oasis at all? Man, what?--Otherarrow (talk) 03:43, March 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * Not that I've been able to find. I don't know why that would be an issue either. As it is I'm still wondering why Wikia removed the Special:RecentChanges links from the Activity feeds on different wikis today. Great Mara (talk) 03:53, March 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * If you're using "Wikia new skin" (aka Oasis), you need to customize your bottom floating bar for that link. -- Inpursuit (talk) 04:10, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

The site notice does appear in NewSkin's Special:WikiAktivity as another section call Mediawiki:Community-corner.  BLUER   一番   12:28, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

Deletion
I was wondering if you know where I can find out how to delete images/change a images filename. I've put three images under candidates for deleteion for this reason.--JupiterKnight (talk) 23:49, March 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it's an admin only feature. Sorry. I'll get on it.--Otherarrow (talk) 00:22, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

Plagiarism?
I was wondering, do you know anything about this post and what was supposedly plagiarized, if anything was at all? --Bettafishrule2579 (talk) 04:37, March 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to look into it right now. « Zahlzeit 05:42, March 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * No word yet but he or she tagged the post with "Wiki Wars". Did someone copy and paste something from there? « Zahlzeit 05:50, March 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * What's a giant bomb? I have never even heard of that site, so of course I haven't copied anything from it. I pride myself in writing most of my own content (...as evident as that is). I wouldn't be surprised if the anons added something. Of course, Tumblr Jackass there was (and probably will be) as unhelpful as possible in fixing this problem, as usual...--Otherarrow (talk) 13:13, March 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Giantbomb's a website (here). Maybe ask him what was plagiarized? He seems pretty unhelpful, saying that we plagiarized him and then not saying what was. :/ --Bettafishrule2579 (talk) 20:01, March 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, OK. As for asking him, worth a shot I guess. If we ask him nicely what has plagiarized so we can remove/change it, and he acts like a unhelpful jerk, it's only going to look bad on him. People tend to not realize that Wikis aren't a hivemind, and one user can add something without the others noticing any problems with it. Zahlzeit said he was looking into it as well, and I know he knows what he is doing.--Otherarrow (talk) 20:28, March 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah he (I'm just going to assume he's a male for convenience sake) got back to me about it. I expected one of the staff member pages to be the plagerized content but it turned out that it was this. He was totally cool and said that we can keep it intact though. « Zahlzeit 22:52, March 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Huh. Didn't see that coming. Well, if he was cool about it, I guess I have to give my apologizes about assuming that they were a typical Tumblr Jackass. So yeah, you will probably never read this, person, but I am sorry.--Otherarrow (talk) 23:08, March 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Didn't see that coming. I've found some stuff that has been plagarized. Some of it unknowingly by me cause I got it from people who I thought I could trust on anonymous boards and so have been trying to alter it so isn't exactly like the giantbomb info. Then there's some like Azazel's history which was added before I joined the wiki. I didn't realize that the guy who originally added the list got it from Giantbomb. I just made a new page for it and moved it from the main Card Summoner page.--JupiterKnight (talk) 01:17, March 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's nice to see that things ended pretty well. --Bettafishrule2579 (talk) 06:33, March 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * If it ended well, then it helps if s/he removed the tumblr post or at least the wiki mention. Although James Franco is charming in Oz. Bluerfn 06:48, March 10, 2013 (UTC)

MT2 Ending Info
So I found out some more info for the endings of MT2 thanks to a user's post on SA. Do you want me to show you what they said about the endings? I could quote them. --Bettafishrule2579 (talk) 04:25, March 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm interested.--63.249.110.97 04:39, March 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, of course I do. I've been wondering about the endings for a while now.--Otherarrow (talk) 04:51, March 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Alright, cool. I'd link you guys, but I'm pretty sure the paywall's still up. Ok, here's the posts (keeping names private just in case):

"Well, now I finally saw the ending to Megami Tensei 2 (the NES one).

So what exactly happened? There was something about rebuilding, I think? :?" -User 1

"There are two endings to Megami Tensei 2. That's the "true" secret ending one, and it's actually kinda halfway through it.

In the regular ending, you kill Lucifer in the underworld and then kill Satan who is behind the demon invasion of the earth, and YHVH then rewards you and the heroine by turning you into godlings and whisks you up to heaven.

In the hidden ending, Lucifer joins you, and you learn that Satan is actually running the demon invasion on orders of YHVH. When you get turned into a godling in the regular ending you're really dooming the rest of humanity to destruction. With Lucifer you kill YHVH (who then says he's just part of the Great Will, a hive-mind of deities that run the universe and the rest are probably going to come get you to avenge him) and with the brains behind the demon invasion gone, Lucifer rounds up all the demons and seals up the hole between dimensions so that humanity can rebuild. The scene then shifts to the underground shelter you start in. You and the rest of the people down there leave the shelter in the now demon-free world to rebuild. There's some interesting stuff down there too, like if you go to the PC you start the game on (the game begins with you playing MT1 on a computer in the shelter) you'll learn that it was built as a prison for Pazuzu (one of the game's main antagonists) by Nakajima, the main character of the first MT.

After that there are a bunch of flashbacks to the scenes and bosses you fought. That video starts with the return to the shelter, and skips the last boss fight and its immediate aftermath.

ed: It's actually quite clever, especially for the time it was released--the "god is evil" trope has been pretty thoroughly tread by this point but at the time it was pretty novel. It appears to be a very traditional "humans beat evil demons, get rewarded by God" plotline, unless you do make a series of non-obvious decisions throughout the game to scratch the surface and realize what you thought was the story was all a lie." -Ending guy

"Wow, that actually sounds really interesting! :) So, when God turned the Hero and Partner into godlings, it would have been like the intended plans for the Thousand Year Kingdom in the SMT games?" -User 1

"Not really. The dynamic in MT2 is different than the SMT games. There's no moral ambiguity or Law vs. Chaos in MT2--God is straight-up villain and Lucifer straight-up hero with no moral grey area like the SMT series. God wants to kill all humanity and doesn't particularly want worshipers or a Thousand Year Kingdom. Lucifer was secret guardian preventing this from happening until Nakajima defeated him and imprisoned him in ice at the end of MT1, allowing Satan (at God's behest) to start global nuclear apocalypse to destroy humanity. In the default ending God probably only turns the hero and heroine into godlings out of fear. (in the corridor between Satan and YHVH in the hidden ending the latter is practically shitting himself in terror as he tries to convince you not to come any further and kill him)" -Ending guy


 * That's the whole conversation (so far), I added the other user's responses to have it make more sense out of context. --Bettafishrule2579 (talk) 05:23, March 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, that was eye opening. Should we start adding that info to the pages then?--Otherarrow (talk) 16:46, March 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I guess so. --Bettafishrule2579 (talk) 20:05, March 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait, why would YHVH be afraid of the protagonist? He is very powerful after all, based on His stats at least.--63.249.110.97 00:43, March 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Because said protagonists and his demons just kicked Satan's ass? Also, not really related to story content, but I once saw a video of KMT where someone beat YHVH with just the hero and heroine. They were max level though.--Otherarrow (talk) 01:12, March 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, if I were God I'd be pretty scared too. Oh, since the paywall on SA is down, I can give the link to the conversation: here. --Bettafishrule2579 (talk) 02:32, March 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, here's a bit more info since then (continuing off the previous part):

"Ohhh, ok. So when God turned the Hero and Partner into godlings, humanity ended up dying out because of the demons?" -User 1

"Probably. It's not explicitly stated as such but you can pretty well surmise that's what's going to happen.

And though the scrolling in the NES versions is a pain, I actually prefer NES MT2 to the remake. The NES version actually manages to look nicer, with close-up portraits for all the characters instead of rough character sprites for everything." -Ending guy


 * It's nice to know we're learning more about these old games. Also, there were portraits in both MT1 and MT2's NES versions, so it'd be cool if we could get them one day. --Bettafishrule2579 (talk) 04:11, March 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'd love if we could get the sprites and portraits from the Famicom games and KMT, but no one really seems to care enough to get them. Shame too. Thanks for covering all of this for us!--Otherarrow (talk) 04:18, March 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * You're welcome! :) Also there's some more info in that link I gave up there to SA about other things in the old games from the same guy, so I guess that'll be helpful too! --Bettafishrule2579 (talk) 05:28, March 15, 2013 (UTC)

MTI's Plot Section
As much as I don't want to get into another argument, why must an entire synopsis of the first game be on this article? You didn't object when Bettafishrule2579 moved all that irrelevant info that was more or less the entire plot of Megami Tensei II over to its page.--63.249.110.97 22:29, March 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * For one, I feel just copy pasting info is super sloppy and makes the wiki look lazy. You can use the info on Nakajima's page as a basis to expand the MTI plot section, but just outright copy paste is bleh. As for the MTII thing, I didn't know about it. For two...there is a lot of stuff I probably missed on my entry on Nakajima's page. Instead of copying me, you should aim to make a more complete plot summery. Now excuse me, I have to finish writing up Nakajima's role in the second novel with half remembered details of a book I read a rough translation of a while back.--Otherarrow (talk) 22:49, March 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * I felt that the MT2 info would go better on the main page than a character page, and moved it. Also, what translation are you reading? --Bettafishrule2579 (talk) 01:27, March 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Of the Digital Devil Story novels? I read the ones on the DDS Translation blog linked on the page for the first novel here. It's not perfect, but it's readable and it's not a total idiot job. I hear the "cleaned up" translation cuts off mid sentience in the second novel anyway, and is basically a edited version of the ones I read. As for the MTII stuff, as I said don't copy me. I am no good. Take the info I wrote down and do it better. If that makes sense.--Otherarrow (talk) 03:19, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Duplicate
Hi, I accidently made duplicates when trying to post a video here, here and here. I'd appreciate it if you could delete those for me. Thanks and sorry for the mess MrRaui (talk) 17:54, April 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Done.--Otherarrow (talk) 18:46, April 12, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the welcome :D Dex dashter (talk) 12:52, April 14, 2013 (UTC)Dex dashter
 * It's a bot, but sure. No prob.--Otherarrow (talk) 14:57, April 14, 2013 (UTC)

so would those pics i uploaded be valid if i add a edit summary?
 * Pardon? Also, sign your post so I know who I am talking to.--Otherarrow (talk) 22:41, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

You deleted several of my img on adachi pg because i didn't have edit summary. would they be valid if i added an edit summary

Tn129719 (talk) 22:45, April 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, no, I deleted those because they were unneeded. We already have a shot of Adachi in the anime, we don't need four!--Otherarrow (talk) 22:51, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

I need this page deleted please. Thank you. MrRaui (talk) 18:38, April 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * And done. Thanks.--Otherarrow (talk) 18:39, April 25, 2013 (UTC)

Deletion Request
A user pointed out here that Svetovid is the same demon as Sventovit. Do you think you can delete the former's page? --63.249.110.97 20:53, May 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * Done.--Otherarrow (talk) 21:42, May 5, 2013 (UTC)

Game Guide app
Hi, Otherarrow!

Just wanted to let you know that I'm working on the game guide app for this site. As such, there's a possibly I'll need to tweak categories here and there so things show up proper on a mobile device :) Any questions, just send me a shout. Should be finished in about an hour.

Best regards, Raylan13 ( talk ) 16:57, May 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * You are working on what now? Anyway, as long as you don't break anything, yeah sure? You are better off talking to Great Mara or Zahlzeit about this kind of stuff (Hell, if Bluer is around, he'd work too). I am by no means an expert on technical stuff.--Otherarrow (talk) 17:27, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

No worries :P Just got finished with it. Had to create a few new categories for things to show up right and some small tweaks. Raylan13 ( talk ) 18:18, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

Re:DS2 colors
I went through the official media for DeSu2, including the Animation and the Break Record game. The pinkish color is splashed on the Enemy Stats, effects, the DeSu2 portal site, and even the site for the Animation - in fact I don't even know why pink and blue was placed as header and font for the navitemp when those contrasting colors burns eyes. The wiki links are still colored blue anyway.  BLUER   一番   19:28, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, that explains why the text on the templates was pink, but going by those links, the primary color is still pretty clearly blue. The two colors of the game are blue and pink, but that does clash, at least on the templates, and having it just pink doesn't illustrate it properly, IMO.--Otherarrow (talk) 19:38, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Whatever works. As you can see in the Sandbox by this edit, it's fitted rather nicely those two colors.  BLUER   一番   19:44, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't get what you mean. I just see hot pink, which, on it's own, doesn't visualize DS2 that well, IMO. I can get what whoever did the old colors was going for, but man, that clash.--Otherarrow (talk) 19:47, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * I also don't get how you can say that the primary color is blue.  BLUER   一番   19:51, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * That doesn't answer my question at all. We disagree about the color, OK, fine. (Personally, I still see it as blue, then pink. The anime site is black then pink, but the anime itself is still blue then pink) But you said something I didn't understand, I asked what you meant, and you blatantly didn't answer me.--Otherarrow (talk) 20:32, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * I mean to say that since you think the colors are blue and pink - if the template was colored blue then the representation is flawed because it's only one color. If the template was colored like it was in the sandbox, you can see both pink in the boxes and borders and blue in the wiki hyperlinks.  BLUER   一番   00:01, May 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * Except that doesn't worth either. For one, the links turn purple when clicked. For two, and again, this is just me, the color scheme is blue, with pink as a contrast, while the sandbox is pink and relies on the color the links happen to be, which is...shaky. I do think that having it be just blue is the best compromise we are going to get compared to having it blue with hot pink title text, which...while the combo looks somehow decent in the official material, on the templates it's just eye searing. (Maybe tone down the pink? Man I dunno)--Otherarrow (talk) 00:17, May 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * The issue isn't about whether its officially blue or pink - obviously it's how bad it is on the eyes. By your say, both game and anime feature the shade of pink a lot more than the blue one - therefore a better shade of pink should be found. Seems to me the blue used right now isn't the same type of blue either.  BLUER   一番   10:09, May 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, I am saying the opposite. The game and anime uses the shade of blue more than the shade of pink. Yes, both are there usually, but blue tends to be the dominant color, while pink tends to be the highlight or contrast. If we are to have just one, it'd be the blue, not the pink. But yes, making one or both colors maybe a bit darker might help?--Otherarrow (talk) 13:16, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

Stat Templates
I've been fixing them occasionally, but it's not something I prioritize. --63.249.110.97 03:04, May 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I've been trying to fix them where I see them, but likewise, I am not going out of my way. Sorry for any trouble.--Otherarrow (talk) 03:07, May 26, 2013 (UTC)

Re:IS PSP remake
True. I think the more important part is cleaning the game pages where the remakes aren't extensive and the original game's info is a bit disorganized.  BLUER   一番   15:24, May 31, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks
Hey! Thanks for reading my edits and cleaning up some of the dumb mistakes I made. I appreciate it. Cixer (talk) 02:40, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

Mem Aleph statue
You say you've seen pictures of the Mem Aleph statue in Shin Megami Tensei IV. Are you able to show these pictures here? GalaxiaWild (talk) 19:17, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, they were posted on a forum I frequent and aren't within easy clicking distance, if that is what you are asking. In other words, I probably wouldn't be able to find them without a lot of rereading pages. Sorry.--Otherarrow (talk) 20:07, June 7, 2013 (UTC)


 * What is the name of the forum site, or the individual board or post that the image is in? That way I can look for it myself. GalaxiaWild (talk) 21:31, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it was posted from somewhere else anyway, but I forgot where. Sorry.--Otherarrow (talk) 21:39, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * This video shows her at the beginning. I suggest stopping it afterwards if you don't want spoilers.--JupiterKnight (talk) 22:13, June 7, 2013 (UTC)

Page Deletion Request
Can you delete this page? Since there's already a navigation template for the game, it is redundant. --63.249.110.97 00:59, June 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Done.--Otherarrow (talk) 01:32, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

Majin Tensei 2 images
So, what should we do with the images here? They're in higher quality than the scans we have now for the Majin Tensei 2 characters, but they don't show the whole body. --Bettafishrule2579 (talk) 04:02, June 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd go with the whole body ones (as they are more complete, better quality or no), and ask whoever uploaded these where they got them so we can get the full versions. EDIT:Ah, the uploader has long departed from the Wiki. How sad. Well, I have already deleted the images so...--Otherarrow (talk) 16:39, June 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh. Hopefully we can find good quality versions. --Bettafishrule2579 (talk) 21:39, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

Sannse'red Image
How'd we go about dealing with the images they had problems with again? On the Gorgon page, the Last Bible II image in the gallery got nixed and I'm trying to figure out what to do about it. Great Mara (talk) 05:00, June 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * LOL That's clever! In that case, is it possible to host pictures off-wiki and just link to it?  BLUER   一番   08:46, June 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I think standard thing to do here is upload censored version and then link to the "real" version. I think Sannse said we were technically not allowed to do this, but she also seemed to look the other way when we did it anyway.--Otherarrow (talk) 09:35, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

Re: Necroposting
Sorry, I wasn't aware that necroposting was actually a thing on Wikis.

However, I feel what you're saying is a little harsh. From what I understand, the two aren't the same thing. I don't know how anybody came to the conclusion that's on the page when Persona 2 and Persona 4 exist in the same universe, and it seems fairly clear that the two types of Shadow Selves aren't the same being. Cixer (talk) 03:01, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Except you have no way to prove that, and what is said in both games do point to them being the same thing. The reason for their appearance may differ, but all the other details are the same. They are doppelgangers of their hosts with twisted features and glowing eyes that embody their negative traits (with input from other people's perception of them) and are actually a part of that person given form through something. Hell, if I recall, the Shadow Selves in P2 are explicitly compared to Personas. Trying to argue that they are completely different is foolish, since one very clearly draws from the other. The main snag isn't anything in Persona 2 or 4, but what is said in Arena. (And I do think that it's possible that the folks who comment on it are just...well, wrong. But it's fanwank to comment on the discrepancy either way outside of the fact that there is a discrepancy)--Otherarrow (talk) 03:09, June 20, 2013 (UTC)

Astarte
I've finally found evidence that "Astarte" from MTII is neither Astaroth nor Astarte. You see, the name used in MTII (both versions, even) is アスタロート. Since Astaroth in Katakana is アスタロト, he can't be Astaroth. However, since Astarte is アスタルテ, his name isn't that either. --63.249.110.97 20:37, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * アスタロート (asutarouto) just seems like a different way of rendering Astaroth when I look at it. I dunno. Great Mara (talk) 20:46, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Either way, it definitely doesn't belong on the Astarte article. I'm going to wait until Otherarrow responds, though. --63.249.110.97 21:06, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's listed as "Astarte" in the ending, and while there are tons of funny misspellings, "Astarte" is actually a thing. If you are going to whine and cry about it constantly, OK, sure. Move it back to Astaroth. As long as you have proof, I don't care. But I expect you to go back and fix all the links again, and make sure all the stats and images are in their proper place, etc etc. If you aren't willing to do that, drop it. The last thing we need is inconsistency because the guy who insisted on the move was too lazy to follow up, you know? Sorry for any rudeness, but geez.
 * On another note, why are you asking my permission anyway? Just do it, and mention your "evidence" in the edit description.--Otherarrow (talk) 23:40, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

Shou Tenshi and Aku Maou
I was busy at moving home last week so I didn't do much editing lately. About the Shou Tenshi and Aku Maou races, my opinion is: they're not races, but story title. Enemy exclusive race refers to the race titles appear in the battle target selection. AFAIK, in the Japanese version, Merkabah uses "Daitenshi" (Herald) and Lucifer "Maou" (Tyrant). Shou Tenshi and Aku Maou are used in the story dialogues exclusively so both don't meet the criteria of being "race" name. I would like to revert your edits myself, but I believe it's better you do it instead. -- Inpursuit (talk) 17:28, June 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, OK. You see, I didn't know that, as I haven't played the game. So when some guy shows up saying that are their races, I am going to take their word on it. My apologizes.--Otherarrow (talk) 20:11, June 30, 2013 (UTC)

HiiiiiiiAllhailshadow22 (talk) 23:57, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

Message
Just gotta say. It didn't last for 5 seconds. It lasted for a good two hours. And I'm sorry if we caused you any trouble. We were just bored. That wasn't a joke apology,by the way. If you do decide to unban me from that year long thing. Cool. But if you don't eh. Once again,I sincerly apologize for our actions and causing you take time out of your day to have to fix it. Good day to you.

Ps. Sorry about deleteing your page thing I didn't know where to leave this.

-Allhailshadow22
 * I had it in bold that my user page is not my talk page. Jeez. Anyway, it took five seconds for me to fix, so from my point of view, yeah. I wasn't there the whole time, what with having real world things to deal with. So sorry for my miscalculation of time. Anyway, I don't trust you enough to unblock you (can you blame me? You guys were vandalizing for two hours and uploaded a picture of a dog's anus), but I will say, don't do it elsewhere and do something else with your time when you are bored. I hear the outside is wonderful. If that fails, video games are always pleasant I've found. Well, good day to you too? I admit, this is the first time a vandal has come out and apologized. Really awkward.--Otherarrow (talk) 00:12, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

Masakado
I was wondering if you would delete as it doesn't work.--JupiterKnight (talk) 18:59, July 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, sure thing. Wonder what happened there?--Otherarrow (talk) 19:05, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

KMT Medusa art
Yo, I wanted to upload Medusa's art from KMT, but apparently it was deleted a while ago for being NSFW or something? What should we do? We can't just ignore concept art, even if it is NSFW or whatever. --Bettafishrule2579 (talk) 08:14, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm on the opinion that this image fits to be uploaded here without censorship. We have never been a porn site and we don't intend to - this artwork should be uploaded as is. It would be much fitting if we can get a source from where the image originated. Last I check Wikia doesn't allow 13-year olds or under to use the site. Also I don't agree with the argument that this risks getting images from other wikis deleted.  BLUER   一番   15:54, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd just upload it. If it gets deleted again, we can use alternate tactics like we did with the GMT stuff, though obviously I don't want to resort to that. Man. This is always a buzzkill.--Otherarrow (talk) 17:07, July 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * I found some other old stuff you might be interested in


 * http://eirikrjs.tumblr.com/post/50564626504/a-grab-bag-of-interesting-older-megami-tensei-art GalaxiaWild (talk) 19:01, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Alright, I uploaded it. The scans for Loki and Medusa's art came from scans of Digital Devil Apocalypse, which is an artbook, I think. There might be downloads of the whole artbook (and others) somewhere. --Bettafishrule2579 (talk) 19:06, July 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * I noticed the URL for the full size of that Medusa image is from Tumblr. What Tumblr site is the image from? GalaxiaWild (talk) 20:12, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * They're from here, but the scans are from an artbook. --Bettafishrule2579 (talk) 22:32, July 14, 2013 (UTC)

Trinity Soul character template
Hello! I was looking to update the character pages of the Trinity Soul characters, and thought that using a character template would make the pages look nicer and more organized. Additionally, I intend on adding information and rewriting parts, since information on Trinity Soul is sparse here. I was wondering, though--would it be acceptable to use Persona 3's character template for the Trinity Soul characters, or should a new one be made? Thanks. Cixer (talk) 17:56, July 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer that a new one is made, as trinity soul has the smallest of connections to P3 and the other related templates (such as the nav) use a different color set up than the P3 ones.--Otherarrow (talk) 18:29, July 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * "We have these color schemes for a reason you know." There's no need to be so damn rude all of the time, guy. Forgive me for not knowing people were too lazy to make character templates for some series', but not lazy enough to determine color swatches for them. Cixer (talk) 22:01, July 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * ...I was being rude? I was merely pointing out that we have these color schemes for each game, and that all templates related to the same game will use the same color scheme. Now, why did I say that? Well, look at my earlier post again. I explictly pointed out that the trinity soul templates already had their own color scheme. So you had no excuse for making a new one, and the fact that you did means you didn't actually read my post, or were too lazy to check the color of the template that was on every single page you were going to be posting your template on. Either way, it looks bad on you. Also, why are you accusing me of being lazy? I never said that I was going to make a trinity soul character template. Why would I make a template for a series that I know all of nothing about anyway? Seriously, I find it rather irritating that you are apparently too lazy to actually read my first response (or, you know, look at the pages you are editing), yet when I clean up after you, you throw a hissy fit and accuse me of being rude and lazy.--Otherarrow (talk) 22:10, July 22, 2013 (UTC)

Hooded Partner
Where did you find that artwork of her? --63.249.110.97 02:51, July 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * I linked my source when I uploaded the image. Now, where they found it, I dunno. I know that it's legit though. It's also on the back of KMT box (hell, the source might even be the KMT box, I dunno)--Otherarrow (talk) 03:30, July 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Do you think you can upload the four bottom pictures as well? --63.249.110.97 03:44, July 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * The two overworld pics? Or the SMT ones? I guess it depends on if we have a place for them (does the MT overworld even have an official name other than "that demon temple place that appeared at the Shirasagi Mount"?)--Otherarrow (talk) 03:53, July 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * You can just put the MTII overworld pic in Tokyo and the one with the monolith can probably go on the one for SMT1. As for what the demon temple's official name is, I will have to ask Inpursuit that. --63.249.110.97 04:12, July 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Just put the demon temple map here. --63.249.110.97 02:00, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oooh. Where did you find out about that? Thanks man!--Otherarrow (talk) 02:23, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * The name? Inpursuit. --63.249.110.97 02:27, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh really? Well thanks Inpursuit, if you see this. And thanks to you too anon.--Otherarrow (talk) 02:29, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Speaking of the Daimakyuu, is the final area supposed to be Infini or Anfini? KMT's ingame map refers to it as the former, but apparently it's also the latter? --Bettafishrule2579 (talk) 02:42, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * "アンフィニ" is what's written on the map, so it is Anfini. --63.249.110.97 02:44, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, ok. We should probably make Infini a redirect to Anfini. --Bettafishrule2579 (talk) 03:04, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, I didn't know that. However, I want to say "Infini" doesn't come from nowhere, but I don't remember where, sorry.--Otherarrow (talk) 04:20, August 14, 2013 (UTC)

Using piped link
You don't get it. It doesn't matter if Wikipedia's guideline says so or not, it's the nature of the wiki ("MediaWiki" preciously) software. It's entirely pointless to replace  by   in order to bypass the redirect. There is nothing wrong to link to the redirect page with an un-piped link.

Now here is the consequence if Atlus NA decides to translate Kunitsukami by other name in the newer installments and we move it accordingly, your previous edit will only create unnecessary link of the piped link to the now redirect page (Kunitsu) and you have to change all of them one by one, either by yourself or the bot. Either way you only generate more unnecessary edits to fix your previous fault. The only page which should be bypassed with piped link is the disambiguation page. -- Inpursuit (talk) 01:39, August 6, 2013 (UTC) About you accusation, I do consider the difference between Wikipedia and Wikia. I have never objected the spoiler alert tag, not once. -- Inpursuit (talk) 02:41, August 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * I do get it, but I personally think that leaving redirects in the article text is sloppy, and from a more general "wiki editor" point of view, fixing them causes less problems than leaving them there and having to deal with double redirects if a new page move comes. Either way, someone has to go back and fix it, why not sooner than later?
 * Wait, wait wait, hold on a sec, so you are saying that if we do move it again, my moving it to the current name now and fixing the links and such, which would become a standard redirect with the new move, would cause more problems than just leaving old redirects be, which in the case of your hypothetical scenerio, would become double redirects. But let's pretend that double redirects don't exist or the wiki magically fixes them itself through the power of whatever; no matter what we link to, it redirects to the "new" page anyway, so by your logic, no work has to be done at all, so you lecturing me about how what I am doing is "wrong" is completely pointless from your end.
 * Something tells me that you didn't think your lecture all the way through and didn't put any real thought beyond "that's how Wikipedia does it!" and then tried rationalizing from there. Spoiler alert buddy: Despite using the same wiki software, we are not Wikipedia. Wikipedia is a massive wiki with hundreds upon hundreds of users and bots that would detect and resolve problems such as double redirects in an instant. We are not nearly that big, our userbase not nearly that large or observant. Different things work for different communities, and trying to force another site's guidelines here might not necessarily work. I also don't know why you care either way, since, ignoring the existence of double redirects (you sure like to), the same thing is accomplished either way, and the only one really bothering with it is me.--Otherarrow (talk) 02:17, August 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * I realized that I came off as rather rude and harsh, but I don't appreciate being lectured about how doing something that I see as beneficial is wrong and I shouldn't do it, especially if the main reason why I shouldn't do it is "Wikipedia doesn't do it" or "it's pointless". It may be pointless from your end, but from my end, it prevents future problems and I personally find it "cleaner" (though I admit I may be the only one who does). It's OK for us to disgaree over this, I do think that there is merit for both of our positions, after all, as I stated it ultimately has the same end result, but ranting at me about how my way is "wrong and pointless" is just rude. And in turn, that makes me mad and causes me to respond rudely in kind. Sorry for the trouble.--Otherarrow (talk) 02:32, August 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * To answer your first question, if Atlus NA uses a new name (say "Kukuku") to replace Kunitsu, the issue of double redirect is minimal because the only thing we need to actually fix is the redirect pages "Kunitsukami"/"Kunitsukami Race", etc. from "Kunitsu" to "Kukuku", instead of bunch of articles touched by you previously.
 * I see. I see. In my opinion, that basically reduces our disagreement to one of aesthetics then, even if aesthetics that a casual reader wouldn't notice. Does that mean that my way of doing things is pointless? Well, no. I still consider it "cleaner", since I personally feel that redirects are more for convenience of the reader than convenience of the editor. In other words, if someone wants to know the list of Nation Ruler demons in IMAGINE, they can put "Nation Ruler" into the search box and the redirect takes them there. However, when linking "Nation Ruler Race" in appearances, since we have to use a pothole anyway (I don't think we have many "X Race" redirects. I think Nation Ruler Race is one, but for the sake of my example, let's say it isn't), it'd be "cleaner" to just link to Kunitsu than link to Nation Ruler. I also personally find the main article text linking to a redirect to be kinda sloppy, but I will freely admit I am probably the only one who cares. Is all of this necessary? Maybe not, but I find it makes us look more organized and "cleaner" than just keeping the redirect there. If you disagree, you have the right to, but as long as it works at the end of the day, we shouldn't have any bad blood about it, since it's just a harmless difference of opinion, right? I don't want any trouble.--Otherarrow (talk) 02:52, August 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * I find it amusing that "you don't want any trouble" contradicts with the consequence once the page is renamed again, it creates more troubles in reality. But I'm not tenacious in fighting for your agreement either. In the end, you have promised to clean up all redirect-bypassing links, should that happen. -- Inpursuit (talk) 03:01, August 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think we are using the same definition of trouble. Me going out of my way to fix more links because I personally think it works better is not "trouble". Us fighting over something that we both admit is harmless and a grudge developing from that? That is trouble. I do think that you were being rude when you came here to lecture me about my wrongness in what is a harmless aesthetic thing, but at the same time, I don't think that either of us are truly right or wrong about it, nor are we are incapable of getting along.--Otherarrow (talk) 03:14, August 6, 2013 (UTC)

Maken X/Shao recreation
Hello n.n I'm new. Bluer's given me permission to add information on characters from Maken Shao/X. I noticed you were the one who deleted the initial character pages last year. So yeah, to prevent confusion, I'm here to let you know that the pages are being re-created and renamed haha.

Maken X/Shao are hack'n'slash games developed by the same team who makes the SMT games (director, character designer, creative designer as Kazuma Kaneko, main composer as Shoji Meguro e.t.c). It doesn't fall under MT (since only one demon, Pan Gu, appears in the game and religion is only mentioned), but "it was decided to be covered since it's developed by Atlus with Kaneko at the art direction.". Maken X/Shao does have alignment/multiple endings, much like the SMT games but that's not important.

Sorry if I was too verbose, here or in any of my edits. It's a pleasure to work with you. .w. Chilong (talk) 06:49, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, that's OK. I don't mind the pages being there and I was just doing what I was told. As for the recent deletion, it was literally a duplicate of another page with a misspelled name.--Otherarrow (talk) 15:04, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

Deleted photo
Hi! You deleted my photo about Yukari Takeba in the game Persona 4 Arena.. with this reason "misnamed" For this reason I'm asking you how should I rename the photo to make sure to be accepted here! :) (like "Yukari Takeba In Persona 4 Arena Videogame"

Sorry to bother you!
 * In all fairness, I also deleted it because it was poor quality, being a screenshot of an arcade machine and all. Let's wait until we can get some official art or official screenshots first, kay?--Otherarrow (talk) 16:24, September 6, 2013 (UTC)




 * HopeMacchanWhite: Ok! Thanks for the advice! :)

P2
Thanks to finding Special:WhatLinksHere, the P2EPstats template is no longer used on any demon pages; its only linked on a coulpe user pages, nothing more, so its safe to delete. Some of the pages using it were really half-assed too, but I cbf to fix them since there's still far too many other more important pages that still need fixing. The only thing that needs to be addressed is that the P2ISstats template adds the P2IS Demons category, but not P2EP Demons; maybe those 2 categories could just be merged into a "P2 Demons" category? Either that, or remove the automatic category addition from P2ISstats since the categories are all mucked-up now anyway and require some manual sorting. Tathra (talk) 10:01, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, thanks. And yeah, we should probably remove the automatic categories from the IS template and sort is manually. Thanks for all the help!--Otherarrow (talk) 17:26, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry if I get names for enemies, traits, spells, etc, wrong for the P2IS stuff, I'm using the fan translation. Thankfully the text is in plain english on the ISO, so I've been able to go through and edit some stuff to match up with the official translation (seeing spells with the -dhain suffix annoyed me enough to go in specifically to change those to -dyne ), but I'm still not sure if its safe to change the length of the file (or even the lengths of specific sections) and its a lot of work just for a little convenience, but still. Anyway, IMO its better to have slight variations here and there from an older translation than no information at all. Tathra (talk) 17:15, September 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, it's fine. True. True. I think that, for the most part, the names should be the same, but we should use the official translation first the foremost, while still noting the fan translation. If I ever get around to P2 again, I can double check the names for you?--Otherarrow (talk) 17:18, September 15, 2013 (UTC)

Doublechecking anything is always a good thing. I refuse to give money to Sony based on their extremely anti-consumer policies, but I've been looking for a cheap, used PSP (since sony doesnt get a cut from second-hand sales) specifically to play ps1 games, so I might end up getting the remakes of P1 and P2IS eventually (used, of course). In the meantime, I'm going through the P2IS iso, editing text, so I can see if the pointers to names/etc are based on the specific bit or if its relative (allowing size alterations), so we'll see how that works. Similarly, I'd love to figure out romhacking well enough to work on a project to translate the gba remakes of SMT1 and 2, but thats a different matter. Tathra (talk) 18:04, September 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * I see. I see. Well, if I ever get around to playing P2 again, I'll give some of these demon names a look.--Otherarrow (talk) 18:18, September 15, 2013 (UTC)

P2 stat templates
The P2 stat template I made that was deleted (which thankfully I saved elsewhere) was versatile enough to replace all 4 of the P2IS templates (with the exception of the exception of P2ISstats since its used for Eternal Punishment). The few pages I changed were to show it as an example for how it would appear, and work as a universal P2IS template. Is there a reason for having 4 separate templates for 1 game? Wouldnt it be a good idea to reduce 4 templates down to 1? Tathra (talk) 16:43, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * If you want to combine 4 templates into 1, use the one template we are already using for everything anyway, not make a fifth template and expect folks to know it even exists. You can add your changes/reworkings to the preexisting template, as I recommended you do. Trying to get a brand spanking new template (as in, a separate template with a separate page name) into circulation is just more work than necessary, IMO.--Otherarrow (talk) 16:47, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

Alright then, I'll replace P2ISstats with it, use the current P2ISstats to make a P2EPstats since thats the only place it should be used, and then mark P2ISStatsUnknownSkills, P2ISDemonStats, and P2EnemyOnlyStats for deletion. Sound good? Tathra (talk) 16:52, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it does. Thanks. Sorry for any trouble. I still don't see why the EP stuff needs a separate template, as the only difference is the addition of Hidden Power (which you added to the IS template anyway).--Otherarrow (talk) 16:56, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

The reason for creating an entirely new template was to allow it to be phased in slowly to prevent making a mess of hundreds of demon pages, since it doesnt use "Void: Repel: Resist:" etc on the stat sheets, so all the inputs need to be changed, which would be done as the new template would be put into use. Simply changing P2ISstats is going to cause a massive mess, because its in use in places where it shouldnt be, and all the places using the other P2IS stat templates will need to be updated anyway to show any effect (that by itself will be a lot of work). Also, I removed Unknown Power from the IS template because there's no such thing in Innocent Sin, but it was put back when I was informed Eternal Punishment was supposed to use the same template (before I knew that, I was systematically changing EP stuff to the EP template, and then went through and removed it completely from use once I was informed it wasnt to be used). Until the new Eternal Punishment gets an official translation, the only English version of it still uses the old resistances style, so it honestly does need its own template for as long as we only have the ps1 version in english. Its going to make a really big mess of things and there will be a whole lot of blanks on hundreds of demon pages, but I'll go ahead and change P2ISstats like you suggest and mark the others for deletion... Tathra (talk) 17:08, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Apparently I didnt have it saved and was looking at a different one I was working with, so unless you would do me a huge favor and temporarily undelete it, all of the Persona 2 stuff is going to be an even bigger mess until I can get it remade. Tathra (talk) 17:14, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * I undeleted it. The thing is, you want to have the EP stuff use a different template...because some minor terminology is different between translations, despite the fact that it all means the same thing? I don't see the point in making a separate template for that. The IS template should already use all the terminology that the PSP version uses, so unless you massively changed things up, there shouldn't that much of a change. Most of the stat values should still map to the same thing anyway, so once the template updates, the pages shouldn't be blank. If not, what the heck are you doing that requires writing up completely different stat set ups?--Otherarrow (talk) 17:23, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * EDIT: I am not sure why I keep hassling you. Do as you must. If you want to rewrite everything and apply the changes to every single Persona 2 demonpersona page, I can just wish you the best of luck. Sorry for the trouble.--Otherarrow (talk) 17:34, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

(Thank you for undeleting it, that saved me a lot of work; its safe to delete now) EP can still use the same template, but what I'm saying that EP should, at least for now, have a separate template is because I'm assuming we want our stat templates to at least be close to how things are stated in the actual game, thus for each skill page, we use the skill names and descriptions takne from the game itself, otherwise the EP skill and fusion pages need to have all the skill names changed to match the updated translation from Innocent Sin. But, despite being the same skill, the skill "Bash" in Innocent Sin (Descripion: "Deal medium Havoc damage to one enemy.") is named "Assault Dive" in Eternal Punishment (Description: "Inflicts a moderate amount of damage on one enemy."). And similarly, within Eternal Punishment, the stat sheets say "Personality" rather than "Traits", resistances are listed with "Voids" and whatever else the specific wording is. If I'm wrong in assuming that it should be our goal to match what is within the game itself, then OK, but you at least understand the point I'm trying to get across, right?

On the note of merging stat templates, I'm going to work on merging P1stats and P1DemonStats next, unless there's some specific reason they're supposed to look different like they currently do (black infobars with grey inputs, the reverse of whats used for the persona template), and then try to do the same thing for Persona 3 and 4. Tathra (talk) 17:35, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, looking at it, I don't think it's policy for the stat templates to resemble the in game stat stuff, as none of the other templates really do it. The SMTIV and SJ templates seem to draw inspiration from how things are set up in their games in terms of visuals, but aside from that...I don't see it? I don't see any bars or anything anywhere after all.
 * As for EP, yeah, I do understand what you are saying. For the time being, we can keep using what we are using, and update it when we get the time? IS alone is probably going to take who knows how long even with stuff carried over from the old set up.
 * I don't know why the P1demon template looks the way it does. I am still iffy on actually merging them (unless you can work out the kinks I mentioned while still keeping it easy to use), but if you want to make them look close, go for it. I'd leave P3 and P4 alone though, at least for the time being.--Otherarrow (talk) 17:45, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * EDIT:Also, sorry for being so rude. I don't really adjust to change well, and, as petty as this sounds, I am not really in the mood for some hardcore editing to adjust all the templates at the moment. Sorry...--Otherarrow (talk) 17:47, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

Not adjusting to change well is another reason why I went about it by creating a new template instead of changing the current one. :) I had hoped the stuff I left on the talk page after creating the new template would be read and discussed before being just flat-out deleted, to discuss the merits of having a merged template, the new layout, a chance to work out any unforseen kinks, etc, before it was rolled in, if it was decided that such a thing would be advantageous. And honestly I would rather have all the EP stuff updated as well because its a lot more specific, but I've noticed some of the stuff using the psp-style layout had slightly different resistances than what was listed within the game (mostly adding light, dark, nerve, or mind resistances) so I'm a bit iffy about whether resistances were tweaked a little bit in the remakes.  I pretty much have worked out how to do minor swaps for the differences between personas and demons (what needs to be swapped is in the P1stats talk page), but going by your actions, reducing the number of templates should definitely be a good thing in your view, so if the P1 templates can be merged, they should be as well. Tathra (talk) 17:59, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, from the looks of things, once we do update the EP template, it probably won't be a straight copypaste of the IS one, due to IS showing us more resistances than PS1 EP did, and we don't exactly have PSP EP to compare. I wouldn't be surprised if the resistances weren't tweaked, but they just kept the missing ones hidden from the player? I wouldn't know either way.
 * If you can do the swaps for demons and Personas without making the template overtly complicated, then go ahead and merge! That was the main concern I had, was that the differences would make the templates either irreconcilable or just a hassle to use. Sorry again.--Otherarrow (talk) 18:05, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

As you can see on the template itself, it currently looks funky with everything in there, so maybe underneath the main template, there can be an example showing how it will look for a persona and how it'll look for a demon. And the ease of use thing, I'll split the inputs part into 2, a separate one for personas and demons, containing only the needed inputs for each, for easy copy/pasting. Tathra (talk) 18:12, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the split inputs will probably help. As for how the template looks in action, it looks like a mess when everything is on there, but seeing it in action, it does work. Good job. I trust the P1 template won't be much more hassle? (when you get to it I mean)--Otherarrow (talk) 18:50, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

Otherarrow, I ve got a question about status. I cant use a status template to another game, right? [Like that confusion I caused], but SMT20XX nedd status, can you create one? Or can I use SMT2 status again, dur to SMT20XX is the same thing of SMT2? Jonathan Summoner (talk) 21:39, October 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Shrug. I dunno. if...: Hazama's Chapter seems to be a retelling of if..., but 20XX seems to be an original story set between the two games. I'd ask someone else what to do.--Otherarrow (talk) 21:44, October 18, 2013 (UTC)

It is alright bro. I am a "Noob-do-it-quick!" kind of person. So I will try to write better from now on. Jonathan Summoner (talk) 16:28, October 29, 2013 (UTC)

Giten Megami Tensei
Other, I found this site for Giten Megami Tensei. Take a look on it.

Jonathan Summoner (talk) 15:04, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh huh. It's a GMT site. All we need is someone who can translate Japanese and we are good to go on the info it contains. EDIT: And no, this isn't an invitation for you to go at it with Google Translate.--Otherarrow (talk) 22:14, November 15, 2013 (UTC)

Eiketsu / Famed
It is humans species right? Jonathan Summoner (talk) 15:37, November 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * No. If I recall, it isn't given a species at all (presumably due to it's unique summoning nature). In fact, I am not sure if SMTIV even uses species.--Otherarrow (talk) 15:55, November 30, 2013 (UTC)

Wikia Expert Showcase
Hey there, Otherarrow, It's Doug from Wikia's Community Development Team! Wikia has a video series called Expert Showcase, that involve a Wikia Staff member, along with a few admins from different wikis discussing certain topics all related under a certain theme! Our next episode, we're gonna talk about JRPGs!

Shin Megami Tensei is a very important series to the genre, so we'd love to invite you to participate in the Expert Showcase. Having a lot of knowledge across other games of the genre would also be super helpful (Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger/Cross, Suikoden, Xenogears/Xenosaga, etc)

Are you interested in taking part? You'll need a webcam with audio/video functionality to be able to participate. If you don't have these components, or not comfortable appearing on camera, then feel free to decline!

We'll be recording the segment over Skype/Google Hangouts sometime in mid-January of next year!

Thank you, hope to hear your response soon :) Have a good one TheBlueRogue (profile)•(talk)•(email) 21:56, December 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, sorry, I am unable to participate, due to both not being able to and not feeling comfortable with appearing on camera anyway. So, no.--Otherarrow (talk) 03:17, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

Telenet Megami Tensei
Hello i just want to let you know that i own Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Story for the MSX and PC-88 would you like me to take a photo of them to add on the wiki?--Megami Tensei (talk) 04:59, December 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Not like a photo of a computer screen with the game on it or the like (if that makes sense), but more images and info would be nice yes!--Otherarrow (talk) 02:43, December 20, 2013 (UTC)

So you like me to take a photo of the game case that also shows of manual and the game for the MSX and PC-88 in good quailty is that what you want?--Megami Tensei (talk) 04:59, December 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * No. No photos. If you can scan the manual and such and somehow able to take high quality screenshots directly from the computer, then we'd gladly accept those. Also, sign your posts.--Otherarrow (talk) 11:52, December 20, 2013 (UTC)

Ill see what i can do :)--Megami Tensei (talk) 04:21, December 21, 2013 (UTC)

Oh and also let me know what other scans you want me to do because im a Megami Tensei collecter and i would love to help out this wiki. i am also trying to get my hands on Giten Megami Tensei for both PC88 and Windows Megami Tensei (talk) 04:36, December 21, 2013 (UTC)

Man of Great Earth : Jimenez
Tell me please, following this videos, it seems that he is the final boss his battle bgm is the final boss theme. OR, just a coincidence? Jonathan Summoner (talk) 15:14, December 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * The final boss of the Law route is Mem Aleph. Jimenez is just a stepping stone on the way to her.--Otherarrow (talk) 03:33, December 23, 2013 (UTC)

RE
Well, the lack of easy navigation for personas by game certainly gave the template a perfectly valid use. While I'm not the kind of person to quit because I did something wrong, it's extremely concerning that a wiki would be this anal. I mean... I need an okay for a simple navigational template? Editing a wiki is meant to be a bold endeavor to encourage change towards improvement. I don't see why you would put forth effort so frivolously to revert a change that created much more good than harm. I'm not scared of editing here, but the unwelcome response to the rather trivial additions I made has me extremely discouraged. This is coming from an extremely experienced wiki editor; this kind of attitude towards truly minimal change will likely scare off most everyone else. Moʟ Maɴ 23:01, January 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * A simple navigation template that isn't like anything the wiki uses and with no indication that there is any need for it. Forgive my rudeness, but just making it with no prior warning and slapping it on hundreds of pages without even assuming that folks wouldn't just go along with it isn't bold, it is presumptuous and it assumes that you know more about what the wiki wants and needs than the people actually editing it. I find that to be rather rude. Of course, going to the template itself, it clashes with how things are organized anyway. Demon/Persona pages aren't split up by game (like they are on, say, the Final Fantasy Wiki), but rather everything the demon/person appears in is on the same page. Clicking a link on a template listing Persona 2 Personas wouldn't take you straight to the relevant Persona, but to the page for the demon as a whole. There is a reason the navigation templates try to list only demons who are plot important, as we are aware that if we listed every one with a speaking role, folks would just get confused by the general articles who's sections on the game in question barely say anything. Likewise, the template kinda sticks out like a sore thumb, because, again, there is nothing like it. Were you planning on making similar templates for every single game? If so, I applaud the effort, but such a major project would be better discussed with everyone first, just for everything to be better organized or in case others disagree or have suggestions for improvements. But no, if you want to be rude and claim I am being "anal" because you barged in and tried to force your way of doing things without asking if anyone had any problems first, then I guess I have no way to stop you. I was hoping you'd be more civil about this, but eh. Also, on a lighter note, I am really glad to hear that you think I actually matter. I don't get that very often.--Otherarrow (talk) 01:00, January 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * If my response is deemed uncivil, oh dear. Blunt? Yeah, very. But an uncivil response would be calling you a name and filled with anger. Yeah, I'm pretty annoyed, but you can't expect a "Thank you!" after you've told someone they put in that much effort for naught, even if you were nice about (you were pretty approachable, although "bravado" has a somewhat negative connotation, I hope that wasn't your intent). Blunt is my nature, so please don't see me as spiteful. I honestly think wiki operations should be more about embracing any good faih change instead of shying away from a foreign concept. Maybe I'm just spoiled by some of the other wikis I've edited... Also, not to burst your bubble, but where did I say you mattered? That's not to say you don't, but I just didn't actually say it (now I sound like a passive-aggressive dick). Moʟ Maɴ 01:22, January 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. As I've noticed (being on both ends of it as you can see), being blunt is very easy to confuse for being rude. My apologizes for the assumption. (Also, bravado has negative connotations? Sorry about that as well. I just wished to applaud you for putting so much effort into making this and putting it on hundreds of pages. That is a lot of work, at least for someone lazy like me. I get tired out just pasting nav templates onto pages) Again, it's not that the concept is foreign in of itself, but it was kinda just sprung on the wiki and thus just doesn't really fit with what came before. If that makes sense. Ah, whatever, I am bad with words. Oh, but you said that I was extremely experienced. Maybe it's just the other wikis I frequent, but being called that is usually seen as a sign of respect. I am not used to being respected. But yes...on the topic at hand, even a regular like me wants to do something different that would affect a lot of pages, I do tend to ask on the forum first. It doesn't come up very often (as I am not very ambitious) and it may just be due to me feeling that I am always screwing things up, but yeah. I'd ask that of everyone. The feedback has helped me out and it might help you too. Or something. Now I am just rambling, I'm sorry.--Otherarrow (talk) 01:38, January 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * You do seem like an experienced editor, but I was referring to myself there. As in, as much as I disagree with that you did, I know it was not done in malice. Someone with little or no experience might assume you had something against them for some reason. I'm sure you've seen that plenty of times just as I have. I know you have nothing against me. And I have nothing against you, though I do greatly dislike what you've told me about the wiki. We don't even know eachother, but you seem like a nice fellow. Moʟ Maɴ 02:00, January 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * I guess I misread there, my mistake! Oh, no, no. Don't take my own opinions and actions as representative of the wiki as a whole. I was just speaking of my own thoughts and decisions on the matter. I don't wish to smear the reputation of the other, much better editors and their through my own stupid.--Otherarrow (talk) 02:12, January 7, 2014 (UTC)

Random questions
Hi. I made The Seedy CD, naming it to follow the style guide's most-recent English Name rule. Well... I thought I had the most recent game with Sumaru City in it (the 2012 remake of Persona 2 : Eternal Punishment), but when I was looking at the PS Store this morning, it turns out the P2EP offered in the store is the PS1 version. Aside: This is weird because both the Innocent Sin and the Persona 1 available for purchase are the PSP remakes... but I digress. Anyways, my question: Do you happen to know if this is the correct name now? Because I changed it from Giga Macho on the template, etc.

Another question: Should consoles that a game is available for download on be mentioned in the Platform(s) section of the infobox? I'll just use Persona 2: Eternal Punishment again as an example. Only PS1 and PSP are named in the infobox, but if we include PSN downloads, we can add PS3 and the Vita. If not there, somewhere else perhaps? It's pretty relevant information. Moʟ Maɴ 14:23, January 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Basically, because of our circumstances if it's EP, then Seedy CD, if it's IS, Giga Macho, but they are the same location so should get the same article. If that makes sense. (...Yes, I changed my mind here. Sorry). We actually got the earlier game, IS, after the later game because remake, but not the later game's remake. I can see how you'd got confused.
 * Sure. I think we note virtual console releases and the like (I think), so I don't see how the PSN is any different.--Otherarrow (talk) 15:06, January 7, 2014 (UTC)

Picture names
Oops, I just realized that the portraits (Shadow Lisa angry and Shadow Maya smiling and angry) I just uploaded don't have very descriptive filenames. Should they be reuploaded or are you able to edit the names? --Bettafishrule2579 (talk) 04:15, February 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * I can edit the names if you want, but personally, it doesn't seem too bad. I mean, I've seen worse. But sure, I got you.--Otherarrow (talk) 04:24, February 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Alright, thanks coolio. --Bettafishrule2579 (talk) 04:34, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

Re:Image Editing
Sure thing, I'll see what I can do for the images. I'm not sure which ones need to be fixed though, so could you point me out?  BLUER   一番   23:38, February 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Done. No need to apologize :)  BLUER   一番   00:35, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

Re:Wrong Persona Profiles
Seriously? I don't own the american release of Innocent Sin so for the profiles and such I was translating it directly from the Japanese script, which I figured would be an acceptable substitute. In Michael's case, for example, it really mentions it being Lucifer's twin. I can only assume that Atlus USA changed the profiles to be also accurate to SMT lore (aside from that, there are also the profiles of Lucifer and Satan which state that Satan is Lucifer post-fall). Persona is not strictly SMT but I guess the localization team tried to avoid contradictions with the main series.

Regarding Michael's gender... I seriously dunno. Its appearance is feminine but it is refered using gender neutral pronouns. It's either a woman or an androgynous man. On one hand, angels do not a gender per se... but on the other it can only be used by girls (Lisa in Innocent Sin, Eriko in Eternal Punishment). Perhaps they intended the ambiguity? Either way, I guess I'll stop translating... who knows what else they changed. G.A.S.A (talk) 17:30, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

About SMTIV
Hey, wanted to ask if I could add that the game hints Isabeau is Akira's mysterious sister. But this is something that the game never explicitly states and seems to want people to figure out on their own. A lot of the game is like this so I wanted to ask your permission to see if it was okay. It's like a grey area of fan speculation and in-game facts since the information is alluded to but never directly stated.

By the way, how would you rate SMT4 overall? I've only done 3 of the four endings so I'm not entirely sure what to think. The neutral ending was... not really surprising to me. The Truthful Knight (talk) 02:29, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * I never played SMTIV, sorry. Anyway, haven't centuries passed topside though? It's not possible for Isabeau to be Akira's sister, since Isabeau is not centuries old.--Otherarrow (talk) 02:34, March 6, 2014 (UTC)


 * She might honestly be the reincarnation. The main character has different versions who died in the other worlds and is a reincarnation himself. Not only that, but we're never told when or how those kids were introduced into the kingdom. Considering reincarnations look the same as their previous selves and that apparently the world is on it's fifth reincarnation; there seems to be strong enough evidence to suggest that Isabeau is the girl being referenced. It's subtle but the cocoon kidnappings are mentioned in all three worlds.


 * Besides that, the evidence suggesting SMT4 Hero is a reincarnated version of the SMT1 Hero seems to be very strong. Stephen seems to hint at it and the fact the previous self used Masakado's power is strong evidence. But again, the game wants you to "find the story" by talking to NPCs and putting it together yourself. So, I'm wondering is any of this would be alright to put in the trivia section or if it's too much on the speculative side. The Truthful Knight (talk) 03:19, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, Flynn is a reincarnation...of past!Flynn. Past!Flynn's backstory is pretty much irreconcilable with Futsuo's (and indeed, SMTIV is irreconcilable with SMTI. They are flat out not in continuity with each other). Stephen was referring to Past!Flynn, who is indeed the guy who did all this stuff and wielded the power of Masakado and so on (which is something Futsuo never did btw. At most, he can get Masakado's katana, but so can just about every SMT hero). As for Isabeau, yeah, there is literally nothing suggested that she is related to Akira at all. Yes, Akira is mentioned as having a sister who was abducted by the angels...and from what I can tell, nothing comes from that aside from giving him motive to betray the humans and become King Aquila. We never see this sister, and unlike Flynn, Walter, and Jonathan, Isabeau is never implied to be a reincarnation of anything (or indeed, anything that fancy). It's possible that she is descended from this sister, but no one ever mentions it (I'd think that folks would know if Isabeau was linked by blood to their kingdom's founder after all). Also, Jonathan doesn't look much like Kiyoharu and Kenji's appearance is so distorted that we can't tell if he looked similar to Walter or not.--Otherarrow (talk) 15:46, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Uh, Otherarrow, humanity has reincarnated five times in the game. It's explicitly stated that all of humanity - not just Flynn - have reincarnated. Flynn is the fifth reincarnation because he is part of the Fifth humanity. It's repeatedly stated that Flynn and his pals have the same Unclean blood as Aquila. More interestingly, the ICBM incident of SMT1 happens in SMTIV but the "unnamed hero" uses Masakado's power to create the ceiling. Considering Yuriko, the Cult of Gaea, Stephen, and the Archangels, it's highly likely that the unnamed hero is referring to the SMT1 Hero. Walter and Johnathan are strongly inferred to be reincarnations of SMT1's Chaos and Law heroes. The sidequest regarding Navarre hints that he became the Kiyoharu of your version of Tokyo. Johnathan of Blasted Tokyo is hinted to have left with the angels.


 * Now, while the reincarnations of SMT1 are alluded to. It's a fact that humanity is on it's fifth reincarnation in SMTIV. The White say it, Sanat says it, Ancient of Days DLC shows it to you firsthand, and it's basically common knowledge in the late-game.


 * Anyway, I added info about the White in the wiki. They do reveal all of that information and I usee quotes from the game's neutral path in case you're wondering. The Truthful Knight (talk) 20:01, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * The "five incarnations of humanity" thing is...I don't think it is fully explained aside to give the impression that the game's events are just one part of a bigger whole, but I am pretty sure the specific number five is just a nod to SMTIV being the fifth main SMT game. It isn't meant to be taken as literal truth about how the mainline games link into each other (and indeed, makes no sense as SMT and SMTII are in continuity with each other.) You are reading too much into it.
 * The ICBM attack in SMTIV is given a completely different reason than the one in SMTI (I don't remember the details, but if I recall, the one in SMTIV was at the order of the Archangels and was meant to wipe out all of the "unclean" while they take the "clean" up in their cocoons to create the "new humanity". Meanwhile, the attack in SMTI was at Thorman's command as part of YHVH's plan to kill the unworthy and make way for the Thousand Year Kingdom. Also, note that Blasted Tokyo is far worse off than SMTI nuked Tokyo, so the ICBM's in IV must have been much more heavy duty than the ones in I). This kinda of blanket assumption of "two similar events happened in the backstories of two different games, thus they must be the same event" is the reasoning that got folks thinking that SMT and MTII were in continuity for the longest time (they aren't. The ICBM attack in that game was done by Satan on YHVH's orders as the first phase of His plan to just flat out kill everyone)
 * You have actually gotten to the point where they start revealing what happened with Masakado and past!Flynn, right? Because they explicitly say that it was Flynn's past incarnation who sacrificed his life to allow Masakado to put up the ceiling. Most of the major human players down in Tokyo flat out knew Past!Flynn (and I think they comment on Flynn looking familiar before the reveal). It's only been 25 years down there. Flynn is the reincarnation of the Masakado hero, but it's not because all of humanity is reincarnations of an older humanity, but because Past!Flynn died and entered the cycle of reincarnation. The "fifth humanity" refers to all of humanity in the game.
 * No, Walter and Jonathan are strongly implied to be reincarnations of Kenji and Kiyoharu. Navarre can't become Kiyoharu, because Kiyoharu had to die at some point to be reincarnated as Jonathan. Jonathan didn't leave with the angels in Blasted Tokyo, because he wasn't born since Kiyoharu never died (not that he would be born anyway, because centuries topside) Likewise, there isn't a Walter equivalent in Infernal Tokyo because Kenji is alive until Flynn shows up. They aren't reincarnations of the SMTI guys, they are reincarnations of Kenji, Kiyoharu, and Past!Flynn. We don't know what fully happened, but the Ancient of Days DLC stated that Kenji existed, past tense, in the Blasted Toyko timeline, and we can infer from that Kiyoharu existed, past tense, in the Infernal Tokyo timeline. The fact that all three of them have been reincarnated means that Kiyoharu and Kenji died in our timeline too, but how, who knows? (My money was that Past!Flynn had to kill them. This is SMT.)
 * Also, you keep using Masakado as proof that Flynn is Futsuo...despite Masakado having no real connection to Futsuo. He has more connection to Aleph. The Ring of Gaea has existed in settings not in continuity with SMTI, as has Lilith (and again, SMTIV Lilith is implied to be a different entity than SMTI Lilith), and the Archangels. Stephen is a bit weirder, but Stephen always was weird.
 * My point is, you are trying so hard to tie this game in with SMTI that you are blatantly and purposely ignoring the game's own setting and lore, and twisting the facts to fit together two pieces of two completely different puzzles.--Otherarrow (talk) 21:33, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sigh, No. No I'm not. You admitted that you haven't even played the game. I've beaten the game and done the neutral route. I'm telling you that this is all true because the evidence strongly supports my claims. Allow me to break this up into parts to make it easier for both of us.


 * First, Kiyoharu isn't Johnathan. That's a fact. Johnathan was chosen by God so Kiyoharu cannot qualify. Kiyoharu, Blasted Akira, and the survivors were abandoned by God. The cocoon kidnappings succeeded so the past self of Johnathan is with God in Blasted Tokyo. Blasted Tokyo is the way it is because the ICBMs succeeded in destroying Tokyo. The demon hordes and Pluto's poison killed off the rest of the world's "unworthy" humans and left few survivors.
 * Navarre was thrown out of the Eastern Kingdom of Mikado in the Tokyo that the MC is from. The clothing that he's wearing looks exactly like Kiyoharu's and he explains that he doesn't remember anything nor does he want to remember. Kiyoharu of your world likely died to become Navarre. The survivors state three things: The person the MC looks like died from Pluto's poison (talk to the NPCs after beating Pluto in the room directly across the entrance of their hideout), Kenji died from Pluto's poison, and Kiyoharu felt guilty because his friend left to join the angels. This mysterious friend is likely Johnathan's past self. Johnathan's past self is with the angels in Blasted Tokyo and from the looks of the Ancient of Days DLC, he was reincarnated along with the rest of the chosen.


 * Second, the Eastern Kingdom of Mikado IS the Millineal Kingdom that the Angel's were hoping to create. Interference from Fujiwara, Skins, and Akira prevented them from perfecting it. Then the MC from the future sealed three of the angels away. Once Gabriel got everything in order, they re-started purifying the Kingdom and their plan to commit genocide upon Tokyo. She specifically refers to it as wanting to achieve the Milleneal Kingdom. In both cases, the angels want to create the Millenial Kingdom. The story allusions of Naraku, Purgatorium, and Lilith giving knowledge is to bring forth this theme in the game. It's present in the icon of SMTIV.


 * Third, Kenji likely isn't Walter. As you correctly mentioned, he died in Blasted Tokyo's world. In Infernal Tokyo, he successfully kills the angels but the Infernal version of the main character, the children locked in the cocoon, and Kiyoharu died as a consequence in that fight. The children in the cocoon had no way of being free so they suffocated and died. Masakado and the ICBMs never happened. Demons flooded Tokyo when Akira was about 5 years old during that time and that was that.


 * Finally, Masakado, Lilith, the Cult of Gaea, the Archangels, and the theme of eternal re-occurrence seem to point out that SMTIV is an alternate reality of SMT1. The evidence is strong on this particular part. The unnamed hero is unnamed because it's referring to the SMT1 Hero. In this reality, the SMT1 Hero joined the counter-demon force and successfully managed to summon and use Masakado to stop the ICBM destruction. It is a fact that the main character is a reincarnation.
 * Don't believe me? Look at the artwork of SMT1's Chaos Hero compared to Walter, now look at Law Hero compared to Johnathan, and then take a gander at Isabeau and the SMT1 Heroine.
 * Not good enough, right? They only look similar and it's only a coincidence despite the main character being said to be a reincarnation, all of humanity being on it's fifth reincarnation, and the obvious SMT1 references. It's all just a coincidence, right?
 * Compare these similarities to the similarity of Hijiri and Aleph in Nocturne. Hijiri is Aleph's reincarnation, it's never directly said but we know it's true. We know the karma system determines reincarnation in the main series according to the Lady in Black in Nocturne and we know SMTIV's world reincarnated 5 times.


 * The hints are way too strong to just say it's all one big coincidence. The Truthful Knight (talk) 22:23, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wow. If I hadn't already admitted to not playing the game, one would think that I was the one who actually played the game and took note of all the implications and you were the one who just read a few wiki articles and assumed you knew what was up. Jesus. OK, one by one.
 * Johnathan being chosen by God and Kiyoharu wasn't is irrelevant. Kiyoharu died, and Jonathan was born centuries later to a different bloodline. He is Kiyoharu in terms of soul or whatnot, but in terms of physical attributes and upbringing, he is a different guy. Besides, I think it's implied that what the angels consider "worthy" is pretty arbitrary anyway.
 * 'The past self of Jonathan wasn't born yet in Blasted Tokyo, regardless of whether or not he was Kiyoharu. What part of "time flows differently on top of the ceiling, so 25 years in Tokyo translated to hundreds of years in Mikado" do you not get? It's like, they explicitly state this as soon as make clear that the folks you are talking to in Tokyo knew Akira and Past!Flynn and the like. There was no ceiling in Blasted Tokyo, so there was no reason for time to flow differently for the folks in the cocoons.
 * Navarre post banishment looks nothing like Kiyoharu, nor does he show any of Kiyoharu's traits. For one, Kiyoharu was a zealot who believed in God and the angels long after they had forsaken him, while Navarre lived in fear of the angels and was basically a paranoid wreck (...Why do you think that Navarre is anybody anyway? He is at most a minor character and has no symbolic important or relevance to the main plot outside of the first ten minutes)
 * The "friend" who left to join the angels in Blasted!Tokyo was Past!Flynn. The whole point of the alternate Tokyo's is the White showing Flynn what would happen if his past self took an alternate option. In Blasted Tokyo universe, Kiyoharu and Past!Flynn sided with the angels, and only Flynn was the one chosen to go with them and Kiyoharu was left behind.
 * Kiyoharu is never mentioned in Infernal Tokyo, and the only reason we can assume he existed is because we know that Kenji existed in Blasted Tokyo. Anyway, Walter was never born in Infernal Tokyo, because a.Kenji never died, so his soul could never be reincarnated into Walter and b.even if he isn't Kenji, Walter was born generations and generations later (remember, centuries on top the ceiling and all) anyway.
 * The game goes out of it's way to draw parallels between Jonathan and Kiyoharu, then Walter and Kenji (same voice actors, same role as the Alignment Hero to Flynn/his past equivalent, etc), yet you seem dead set to just ignore all of that...because you really want SMTIV to be in continuity with SMTI and the main cast to be reincarnations of the SMTI cast, against all logic.
 * By that same logic, I can argue that SMTIV is an alternate universe version of Nocturne, as that game also has Gaians, Lilith, Masakado, Archangels, etc. Why I can see it now, Walter is actually the reincarnation of Chiaki! Jonathan is Isamu! Isabeau is dear Mr. Takao! It all falls into place!
 * You noticed that the main cast of SMTIV were purposely designed to bring to mind the main cast of SMTI? Congrats. So did fucking everyone else. They were purposely designed to draw comparisons to the older cast, but that doesn't mean they are the same people (next you are going to argue how Mark, Michel, Junpei, and Yosuke are all actually reincarnations of each other. Boy, Arena Ultimax is going to blow your mind).
 * Hijiri and his state of reincarnation is explicitly stated to be cursed by God for his past life commuting the "ultimate sin". Using him as an example for how reincarnation in the series works in general isn't going to work, as he is stated to explicitly be a special case.
 * And seriously, you are reading way too much into the "five times" thing. For one, the main SMT games only have four worlds between them. SMT and SMTII are one world. It's just a cute little nod to the fact that despite being labeled SMTIV, it's actually the fifth "main" game, hence, the people in it are the "fifth humanity".
 * (For the record, I was initially confused at all the SMTI parallels that didn't go anywhere either, but now that I know the whole plot, it does seem like they were going for a nostalgic feel, instead of actually trying to tie into SMTI.)--Otherarrow (talk) 23:47, March 6, 2014 (UTC)